Do I Need a Dozer or Therapy?

[BigJim]

Okay, so here's the deal. I've got this good-sized dam on my property that needs to go away because it leaks, the mud-puddle it holds back is a mosquito-infested eyesore, and I could use a nice pasture in its place. A local operator quoted me $6500 to do the work and the wife says I should let him. But that's not how I see it.

I'm one of those guys that just hates to farm out something I would enjoy doing on my own. The way I figure it, life is really short; if you don't have some fun, you're no better off than a still-born. So I got this crazy idea that I should buy a dozer and tear out the dam myself. Besides, I have plenty of other small dozer projects that I could do if only I had a dozer.

The trouble is that I can't see this making any financial sense at all. The perfect-world idea would be that I could buy a used dozer in decent shape, put about 200 hours on it, then sell it for a little less than I paid for it. A great idea, but probably not a realistic one.

For starters, the idea is most likely mathematically impossible. Suppose I bought a new machine, let's say something in the D5/650/D39 class, probably for $160K or thereabouts (not that I have that kind of money, but just suppose). How much less is that new machine worth the minute I purchase it? $50K? $60K? Remember, an item is only worth what YOU can sell it for, NOT what you had to pay for it. The dealer certainly isn't going to give you anything close to even a used price on a brand new dozer when you go to sell it. He's going to give you what he thinks he call sell it for (probably $130K) MINUS his margin (probably 30 percent), so maybe $100K (or less). All this is just pure guesswork on my part, but nonetheless, the $6500 dam project suddenly becomes a $65K dam project if you buy new.

So now let's go to the other extreme and consider buying the cheapest old pile of scrap iron we can find. Maybe if I shop around, I can find an old rust bucket for $10K. But how much would I have to spend just to make it operational? Another $20K? $30K? I don't know. And the biggest problem is that I have no ability to do heavy equipment repair. I can change filters and fluids, but when it comes to turning pins and bushings or overhauling engines or hydraulics, forget about it. So I think heavily used is totally out of the question.

So what's left? Try to find a sucker who bought a new machine and didn't use it much and now has to sell it? That's not easy. And how many hours on a dozer is too many for someone like me that can't fix it when it breaks? 500? 1000? 3000? I don't know, but I bet it's not many. The bottom line for me is that if something goes wrong, I've got to call a dealer for an on-site service call. How many of those can I afford?

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to have a dozer and know I could make good use of one, but I'm really having trouble seeing how it would end up being anything other than a huge money pit. I thought about renting, but the problem with that is that I work full time and could only do my dozer projects on weekends. It'd be nice if someone would rent me a dozer by the engine hour and let me keep it for six months, but fat chance of that.

Anyway, I know there are folks on this forum that have pondered similar ideas before, and I was hoping one or more of them might be able to post something helpful one way or the other. If I'm truly crazy and just need to pay the pro to do the work, so be it. I'd be disappointed, but a lot richer. On the other hand, if there's a way I could do this myself, I'd be really happy, even if I did have to spend quite a bit more in the long run that the pro would charge (but providing it wasn't an outright fortune).

Many thanks to whoever has something to say!

 

[/pine]

Have you considered leasing one?

 

[Redneck in training]

Running dozer into things is a great therapy. Kidding aside. If time is on your side then buy an excavator. Assuming you have tractor with FEL or a rear blade. Use the excavator to break the dam then use your tractor to move the spoils.
Also there are several owner of Yuchai (also sold under Nortrac) dozers on TBN. They can tell you if it si big enough for the job you need to do. I think it is 30HP only. Another small and usually quite cheap dozer is Mitsubishi BD2. I was looking for a dozer while ago but then decided to farm it out due to work commitments.

 

[bcp]

If you don't need the traction of a dozer, you can move and spread lots of dirt with one of these.



12 Foot Drag Scraper

Beaver Valley Supply Company - Garfield Drag & Corral Scrapers

Garfield Drag Scraper

Bruce

 

[MarkV]

There are a good number of members here on the forum that have bought their own dozers used and feel like they have come out ahead on the deal. They seem to be the ones that have operating experience with that type of equipment, the knowledge and tools to do most of their own repairs. If you are one of those it might be worth the purchase. If your like me and looking for a way to justify another piece of equipment to the wife....well you will come out ahead by hiring it out based on my track record.

MarkV

 

[SSdoxie]

Have you thought about a large skid-steer track machine? They won't move as much dirt in a single pass but the speed in returning to dig for next pass is much faster. Can come close to equal amount of soil in equal time, less investment (?) and they are easier to work on the track system yourself in needed.

I did a quick check online, it looks like you could find a failry decent D5 for around $20k - $25k but transportation needs to be considered. A tracked skid-steer can be hauled with a 3/4 or 1 ton truck easily.

 

[hosspuller]

I say...rent an excavator to drain the pond. Then use your tractor with rear box blade to level the dam. Draining the pond is important or wise you'll be working muck.

 

[BigJim]

You reckon a SS/MTL could tear out a dam? This thing is pretty big. The lake when it was new and full was about 2 acres surface area. The dam is probably 12' high, 30' front to back, 300' long. It's a lot of dirt. The pro estimated about 50 hours, so I figure 200 for me and a dozer (not being a good operator).

But yes, a skid steer is certain a more versatile tool. I'm just not sure that taking the dam apart one bucket at a time is really the way to go. And some of those high-end MTLs are nearly as much new as a small dozer.

 

[Bob Rooks]

Dozers are great therapy. Happiness is a full blade. :thumbsup:

 

[swick1]

I think an excavator and used dump truck is the way to go if you can keep the truck on solid ground. I'd rent the excavator since repairs will be covered. You can fix a dump truck easily compared to a dozer. Take a week off work and make it happen. This combo would move dirt fast! Say $10k for a decent dump and $2k for the ex rental. Your job would then cost $2k+fuel if you sold the dump truck.

 

[Ken45101]

What are you going to do with the dirt? How far are you going to move it? A dozer is not good for moving dirt any longer distance although it can be done. An excavator and dump truck is better for moving the dirt longer distances but then you still have to grade it out, a weak point for an excavator.

A dozer is good for grading the fill area and packing it down. A skid steer with tracks will do the job too but not as well as a dozer.

Ken

 

[Biggreenavalanche]

I think swick1 is on the right track...although I'd seriously consider renting/leasing the trackhoe/dump combo as a package...then if anything mechanical goes oops you're covered...

 

[Todd727]

About $5000 for a 1 month rental direct from Komatsu. I ended up with a brand new machine. State of the art. Any problems, they come out and fix it. You can do a lot of work in a month if you are industrious. If I remember correctly, they allow 40 hours a week on the meter without paying overage.

Komatsu America Corp. - Equipment - D37PX-22

 

[swick1]

One thing I find funny about this site is that most people want to buy an old junker and fix it to do their work rather than rent a nice new one and take a week off work. I understand the desire to own equipment, but not the logic. Oh well, how do you justify a boat or toy hauler???

 

[EddieWalker]

Without seeing the size of the dam, the slope of the land or any idea of the distances involved, it's hard to say what the best machine for the job is. The problem with small dozers is they just don't do very well at moving dirt or digging into it. There are also two types of dozers, finish dozers and dozers that move a lot of material. D6 sized machines is where that line really becomes obvious. Smaller machines are easier to get to and from the job, manuver around and give you a nicer finish, but the blade wont hold very much dirt. 150 hp machines on up will have U blades that hold more material and can be extremly effective at doing what you want done. Buying or hiring it out, be sure you get the right machine for the job.

As for getting an excavator, they are great for digging, but terrible at moving or spreading material. They are the type of machine that you get when you have a dozer there to spread your material after you haul it with a dump truck.

Have you considered a full sized loader/backhoe? While the amount of material is much smaller that you can move, with time, it does add up. They sip gas compared to a dozer and they are extremely versitile in what you can do with one. Digging the dam, hauling the dirt, spreading it out is all something that it is perfect for. With water in the pond, you need to dig out a ditch to drain and dry the pond before you can do anything. Dozer isn't very good for this, the backhoe or excavator is.

Another consideration is how deep is the silt in the pond that you want to fill up? Just driving a dozer over it might create a nightmare beyond comprehension. Getting a dozer stuck is something you never EVER want to do!!!

Nothing makes sense financially when you own land, so it's not going to add up no matter how you do the math. Decide on what you can afford, what you want to do, and go into it accepting that it's a money pit and it will cost more then you thought possible.

Good luck,
Eddie

 

[Ken45101]

One thing I find funny about this site is that most people want to buy an old junker and fix it to do their work rather than rent a nice new one and take a week off work. I understand the desire to own equipment, but not the logic. Oh well, how do you justify a boat or toy hauler???

From a pure numbers standpoint, you are right. However, there is a lot of comfort in having the machine available when it is convenient to you, and not being on a tight schedule to get the work done within the rental period. That becomes more like a job than fun.

Ken

 

[swick1]

I guess I hadn't considered the undertaking to be a form of leisure. I work my machine hard and although the jobs are satisfying, there are periods of boredom just like any worthy endeavour. The results are worth it though! At least we all agree he should do the job. Good luck!

 

[sdkubota]

What about just breeching the dam so it no longer impounds water then plant the former lake bottom? Who knows, maybe sometime in the future someone will need dirt and you can have them remove it and get paid for it at the same time.

 

[sixdogs]

Virtually all of the equipment I own is the result of savings from not paying others to do the work but instead buying the item and doing the work myself. Over the years it can really add up. My vote is buy what you need, maybe a little more, and enjoy yourself. You never know when that trap door of life will open for you. If nothing else it's great conversation over the holidays.

 

[BigJim]

Well, I certainly appreciate all the input; it's been very helpful. But in the end, no matter how I tried to do the math, the numbers just didn't add up. And so unfortunately, I've hired it out to a pro. I always hate doing this because it FEELS like money flushed down the toilet, when in reality it isn't. At least I still have fun tearing out trees with the 49 backhoe on the back of my JD5425, largely thanks to Eddie's posts here from several years ago.