Diesel Cars

[thatguy]

A car with less emissions and doing fewer miles per gallon will pollute just the same as an older car with more emissions but doing 60+ mpg.

Doesn't make any sense.

You will find that the modern cars anly pollute less on a steady engine speed, they still pump out black when booted, even more than older cars.

Its all political, just to show that we are doing something to save the planet, like the electric cars, very clean but the polution caused by the coal burned to generate the electricity far outweighs any savings

we (the US) like to put on the 'feel good' face.. Same with ethanol - using corn for ethanol, and driving up food prices due to the lack of corn..

B

 

[schoolsout]

I have owned a 2006 VW Jetta TDI I bought new in Feb of '07. I love the car, but have had the "fortune" of replacing camshaft due to premature wear (seems to happen to more than a few with BRM engine), replaced dual mass flywheel in DSG transmission (happens to most from what I can tell) and blocked off EGR (VW isn't only one with this issue). Transmission service is ~$300 every 40k. Timing Belt ($700) every 80k.

It gets ~45mpg

Diesel is ~$.80 more/gallon than reg unleaded.

I hope it lasts...I plan on driving it 'til the wheels fall off, but if I could do it over again, I'd get a good gas car that could achieve 35+mpg.

 

[schoolsout]

I've got 136k miles on my car, too, by the way.

And another reco for Fred's TDI site. Found a guy in Chapin that is more than willing to do work on the car for little to nothing. Nothing is what he asks, but I always try to leave parts/stuff he or someone else could use. He actually has a 2 post lift in his shop and has TDI gettogethers from time to time where everyone gets together and works on the cars.

 

[Haoleguy]

One big plus to me about the new diesels is that they come with sufficient fuel tanks to get good total distance between fuel ups. That's a big plus if you have a long commute in winter...Gary

 

[Renze]

I have a volvo S70 2.5 TDI (its the face-lifted 850, the last one designed by Jan Wilsgaard: the later ones are designed in the Ford era by a British cock who preferred design over functionality) which, when driving 50km to work each day, half highway, half country roads, gets 1 liter per 15km or 35 miles to the gallon. I have to say, i DO like to ride up front When driving with the flow i get 40 mpg.
When pulling a 2 ton tractor on a trailer, round trip, (50% empty, 50% loaded km) i still get 10 miles to the gallon.
The 2.5 TDI is a 5 pot, a 1.9TDI with one cylinder extra. It was originally designed for the VW Transporter Van (Eurovan) where VW had it at 150hp, Volvo uses this engine at 140hp but with a wider torque band.
It gets to 100kmh in under 10 seconds.

You do need VW 507.?? spec oil to get it to run 600.000km or more, but mine is at 330.000 and not using any oil yet.

As this one is the last of the sensible Volvos before Ford got around (Volvo tended to improve the parts that failed: Ford tends to cheapen the parts that DIDNT fail in order to split the difference between profit margin and sales price) I try to run it as long as i can. If i dont get any unforeseen problems i'll keep it till at least 500.000km. Thats another 5 years for me, the car will be 19 years old by then, and perhaps the first rust spots will occur by then, on our salted winter roads...

I hope by the time i need a new car, i can get a decent D5 diesel in a car that has been designed in the Geely era: Geely might be just a chinese, but they let Volvo run their own show and just look over their shoulder which technology they can use in their Chinese factories... So i hope i can buy a REAL volvo in the future. If not, i'll probably buy a Skoda, which is a Czech Volkswagen, just without that VW badge, for which you pay a premium in Eurpe

 

[TimberXX]

I have owned a 2006 VW Jetta TDI I bought new in Feb of '07. I love the car, but have had the "fortune" of replacing camshaft due to premature wear (seems to happen to more than a few with BRM engine), replaced dual mass flywheel in DSG transmission (happens to most from what I can tell) and blocked off EGR (VW isn't only one with this issue). Transmission service is ~$300 every 40k. Timing Belt ($700) every 80k.

It gets ~45mpg

Diesel is ~$.80 more/gallon than reg unleaded.

I hope it lasts...I plan on driving it 'til the wheels fall off, but if I could do it over again, I'd get a good gas car that could achieve 35+mpg.

What's in the transmission service?

 

[Dmace]

We've been looking at a new more fuel efficient vehicle comparing a VW TDi to other 4-cyl gas options like the Mazda3 and Subaru Impreza.

The Mazda3 gets 40mpg with a direct injected 155hp 6 speed auto and the Subaru Impreza has a 148hp CVT transmission and AWD returning 36 mpg. The 140hp Jetta TDi is rated at 42 mpg, hardly worth the $6000 premium, expensive maintenance, difficult winter starts, timing belt changes, more expensive fuel and less gas station options (8 gas stations in my town, 2 have diesel...).

 

[SGFarm]

Are you sure the engine for the jetta is made by mercedes? Is the tranny too?

No the engine is not made by Mercedes. It shares a lot of pieces and engineering with Audi, but not MB

 

[scrappy isb67]

Are you sure the engine for the jetta is made by mercedes? Is the tranny too?

there is nothing Mercedes in a VW, they "might" share the same manufacturer for the injection system(Bosch) but that is the only similarity

What's in the transmission service?

Drain the fluid, refill with a special tool. hook up scan tool and idle car to transmission operating temp(only shown accurately on the scan tool) and remove excess fluid. there is no fill port on top, it is serviced from the bottom. There is a stand tube that that is removed to drain the fluid and re-filled thru the same port/ stand tube. the stand tube determins the level in the trans. The fluid for the DSG is the most expensive part, it is ~$30/liter.

We've been looking at a new more fuel efficient vehicle comparing a VW TDi to other 4-cyl gas options like the Mazda3 and Subaru Impreza.

The Mazda3 gets 40mpg with a direct injected 155hp 6 speed auto and the Subaru Impreza has a 148hp CVT transmission and AWD returning 36 mpg. The 140hp Jetta TDi is rated at 42 mpg, hardly worth the $6000 premium, expensive maintenance, difficult winter starts, timing belt changes, more expensive fuel and less gas station options (8 gas stations in my town, 2 have diesel...).

I am AVERAGING 41mpg and have seen 46+/tank with my 2010 Jetta TDI. The EPA Ratings on my car are 31 city/41 hwy. can the others do this? the maintenance isn't any more expensive than it is on a gas Jetta (they take expensive oil too) so that is not a factor in my mind. and sure you can get a base model stripped down Jetta for about $6k less but a COMPARABLY equipped gas Jetta is within ~1K the price of the TDI. The closest comparable Gasser is the Wolfsburg edition and it is still not as equipped and ONLY about ~1K less When I looked last. The TDI starts ans well as the gasser, the gassers have timing belts too, or worse yet a chain that still has change intervals! I will give you the more expensive fuel BUT the better mileage offsets this. My wife drives a '10 Passat (similar in size & weight) with the 2.0T and it is averaging 31mpg. filling both cars is ~$50-$60 and the jetta has gone about 100 miles more

No the engine is not made by Mercedes. It shares a lot of pieces and engineering with Audi, but not MB

if you look under the hood of a VW, you will see Audi logos all over everything!

 

[Sutol]

we (the US) like to put on the 'feel good' face.. Same with ethanol - using corn for ethanol, and driving up food prices due to the lack of corn..

B

Same over here with the wheat used in making bio diesel, cooking oil is now more expensive than diesel as well, it used to be a third of the price or less until people started tipping bottles of it into diesel cars

 

[downslope]

That's crazy! I was just looking at used tdi's in upper NY. I was wondering why they were so cheap...

I read that link to NYS DMV and the way I interpret it, if the used car has over 7500 miles you are OK to register. Am i reading it correct?

On another note, in the past I've owned several small diesels like VW, Isuzu, etc. and I think in today's times they are just not worth the extra cost and aggravation. I can do a lot of my own maintenance but don't like to do it on brand new cars and trucks. As others have pointed out, diesels in small cars just don't pay. You pay a premium up front, they seem to depreciate worse, and the increase in MPG takes a long time to cover the costs. How much better mileage will I get compared to a gas Civic, Corolla, Yaris, etc? Not enough for me. Even if you get better mileage, it's a law of diminishing returns. The $$savings in going from 30 to 40 or 40 to 50 mpg are much less than if you can improve from 20 to 30 mpg. I put small hybrids in the same situation, for me personally I would never buy a new one.

We abandoned diesels in small cars and trucks once before (1980's ish) and it wasn't all just because of emission rules or reliability, people just were not buying them. A lot of people that post on web forums are "enthusiasts" of sort or compulsive about sqeezing every nickel out of their fuel budget, and say they will purchase diesels or hybrids but the mainstream buyer tends to avoid.

 

[ultrarunner]

I drove a BMW 1 series for a few months and really enjoyed... plenty of pull for mountain driving and I found it to be very economical as far as miles per gallon... unfortunately, diesel cost about $4.40 a gallon right now in Oakland CA...

Had the chance to drive a Honda Diesel in Germany... drove nice too...

Brother still has his 83 Mercedes 300 Turbo and never had any issues with it in the last 300k miles.

A co-worker bought a jeep with Diesel a few years ago... lives in Tahoe and really likes it.

 

[Brushhill dave]

I have an '01 TDI golf and love it..... Right up until it needs service. It is not the right choice if your service tech is any distance away from where you live. Luckily I have a mech that used to work for VW and right now he's had my car for 3 weeks working after hours on a timing belt/ water pump etc replace. I get on average 55-60 mpg. I drive it hard and use it daily for transportation to work which is generally no less than 60 miles one way. The car has 180xxx miles on it and would buy another in a heartbeat, save for the priemum. Diesel is 35c a liter more than gas is right now here in central alberta. They're great in the snow. Merry Christmas all

 

[homeputter]

Several years ago Mercedes Factory took 5 new E-class diesel passenger cars and ran them for 100,000 miles at 150 mph on their test track. They only stopped them to change drivers and oil. They had no mechanical problems, as I recall. They did this to try to impress the public that they had overcome their quality problems.

 

[not2old]

I had a 1979 Eldorado diesel that was the nicest riding, quietest, most economical, good looking car I've ever had, right after I swapped in a gas engine because I couldn't keep the diesel running. It was quieter than a normal gas model and got 24 MPG on the highway. With two batteries and the original diesel starter, nothing could prevent it from starting. The ex insisted We get a smaller car after the kids got their own cars and also insisted it was her turn to pick out the new one. I cried when she brought home a Cavalier Z24

 

[TimberXX]

Several years ago Mercedes Factory took 5 new E-class diesel passenger cars and ran them for 100,000 miles at 150 mph on their test track. They only stopped them to change drivers and oil. They had no mechanical problems, as I recall. They did this to try to impress the public that they had overcome their quality problems.

Do you have a source on this? They ran the old 190's like this back in the 80s. They have the car at the MB memseum in Germany.

The issue with Mercedes is the daily driver beating that the cars take. Potholes, etc. And the wear and tear and the years go by.

My old man has had four 77 diesel, 87 gas, 97 gas, 08 gas. Every year they got less reliable. Its really sad.

 

[Turbys_1700]

Back in 1982 I bought a Jetta diesel...
It had 8K miles on it...
I believe that it was the newer body style at that time and the dealer had a salesman put those miles on it...
At the time I paid 8K for it...
A whopping 52 hp...
I typically got 42-45 mpg on the freeway and 36-38 in town...
I really liked that car but traded it in with only 45K miles on it for a truck...
Going up Ridgecrest on I-40 here in NC required you to run it up to 55mph, cram it into 4th, and then scream up the 4 mile grade at 55 mph...
Good car but basically a tin can on wheels...
I would have hated to get into a wreck with that thing...

If and when I need a newer car it will be gas unless the price of diesel goes down and the cost of ownership of a diesel car goes down...
I personally can't justify the higher initial cost and the higher cost or ownership anymore...

 

[Tough Luck]

We have a '06.5 Jetta TDI and it has been an great vehicle. 120k+ miles and still running great.

I think there has been a misconception that diesels are expensive to own, poor performance, smoke and sound loud. This was my impression before we bought a Jetta.

I don't consider the maintenance to be any more than a gas engine. I have allways replaced a timing belt on my Jap and German gas cars at 100k miles. The oil change for the Jetta is a little more expensive, but it lasts twice as long (10,000 vs. 5000 miles).

 

[newbury]

<snip>
We abandoned diesels in small cars and trucks once before (1980's ish) and it wasn't all just because of emission rules or reliability, people just were not buying them. <snip>

Trucks (semi's and big 'uns) have had diesel all along. "Small cars" in America that were built by AMERICAN companies (GM or General Mismanagement) and had diesels were not that small - My BIL had a full sized luxury diesel Caddilac which he swapped the engine on, it also leaked a can of freon about every 100 miles.

From the Wicki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oldsmobile_Diesel_V6_engine):

Oldsmobile's engines, the 5.7 L LF9 and 4.3 L LF7 V8s and the 4.3 L V6, were notoriously unreliable. Conversely the Oldsmobile engineers claimed that management proposed a time line for implementation that didn't accommodate enough testing. Although over one million were sold from 1978?985, the failure rate of early GM diesel engines ruined the reputation of diesel engines in general in the United States market. Eventually, a class action lawsuit resulted in an arbitration system under the supervision of the Federal Trade Commission where consumers could claim 80% of the original cost of the engine in the event of a failure.
The primary problem with GM's diesel engines of the 1970s was their design - weakness in the head design and head bolts, which were not able to withstand the higher cylinder pressures and temperatures of diesel use. This design weakness combined with poor diesel fuel quality in the 80's led to catastrophic failure of pistons, cylinder heads, and even cylinder walls. Reinforced truck diesel engines, from GM and other companies, did not have these problems.

It was a grand idea to get around emmission regulations and a knee-jerk response to a gas crisis but it didn't work.

During the same time period (1979-1983) I and several of my coworkers bought VW Rabbit diesels which were EXCELLENT, ran well and got 50 MILES PER GALLON routinely around town. This is when the gas version Rabbit got 30 mpg WHEN driving. However for those that were there it was also when one may idle in long lines just to get gasoline, effectively getting ZERO miles per gallon.

Only us old f@rts remember the long lines for gas and the rationing of the '70's. It was truly a pleasure for me to drive by a long line of cars waiting to fuel up while I went to the diesel pump with NO line and no worries.

GM's sudden response with a diesel engine for a passenger car was first seen as similar to America's response to the Russians in the space race. However it was a dismal failure. By 1985 almost anyone I talked to about diesel cars thought they were totally unreliable, while it was actually only another example of GM's mis-management. The average "American public" herd mentality broadened that to ALL diesel CARS, not being smart enough to realize that there were a lot of small diesel trucks. This did not apply to the rest of the WORLD.

I saw four things why the American public didn't like diesel:
GM's failure
The fuel "smelled" (I've had a lot of females complain about diesel odor)
Soot
Most diesel vehicles were "slow off the line"

So "guys" didn't like them because of poor acceleration and "gals" didn't like the smell.

The first vehicle I bought after my '79 diesel Rabbit went away is an '88 Ford E350 Diesel. The vehicle I bought last week is a Ford F350 diesel.
/edit - they are both out front of my house

 

[Ivan49]

Are the VW Jetta front wheel drive/ I was in Germany in Sept and we tried to rent a Diesal car but could only get gas. The gas one we got was new with only 8 KM on it and it got 45 miles toa gal. I was real supprized to see most cars and van over being diesal. I saw my first VW bug in diesal. I think the oil companys in bed with whoever has a lot to do with not bring the engines over here.