Stick welder vs. Oxy/Acetylene???

[MossflowerWoods]

I'm not ready to buy yet, but I am starting my research.

I'm worried I do not have good enough power, nor is there a space in/near the house I'd feel safe welding, so a stick welder seems not for me.

But there are many negatives to tank welders also.

So, which is better and why? :confused2:

Thanks in advance,

David

 

[Gary Fowler]

oxy/acetylene welding is usually good for thin material. It take a long time to heat up thicker material to the melting point. It is extremely hot work when you have a thick piece orange hot and trying to fuse it together. I have both and use my torch for cutting and really thin stuff (less than 1/8") that I cant stick weld very easily. I also have a small 110v FCAW / MIG machine that is practically useless due to power and duty cycle.
If you have an electric dryer connection, then you have the power to run a stick welder or 220v wire machine. Most newbies to welding prefer the wire feed MIG with inert gas shielding. They are easier to weld with than a stick machine for inexperienced persons. Thicker pieces require multiple passes just as a stick electrode does, but MIG / FCAW can weld any thickness material that you may have- just make several passes and dont try to carry to large of a fillet weld.
Each of these machines has a place and ideally, you need all three in order to be ready for all repair possibilities. I think that if I had only one choice, it would be a 220 volt MIG/FCAW (wire feeder) I like to use inert gas with those as the welds have fewer porosity pores with good shielding gas but the gas is not cheap and neither are the gas cylinders. I think the initial investment would run you around $1000 for a good one with a full tank of gas and a spool of wire.

 

[deereman75]

O/A. The first welder we got was a blueshield duo light industrial torch kit from air liquide. I have nothing but good to say about it, all we did was add a smiths aircraft torch from ebay for the thin stuff. Just for the torch kit and tanks, not including the aircraft torch, was around $1000 (and that was after a big discount) I recall that the torch kit had a normal price of around $500, but he gave us a really good deal, so it cost around what the lincoln cutwelder costs ar home depot. He also gave us a really good deal on the tanks. If you want to get a good O/A torch kit that will last a lifetime, it will cost between $1000- $1500 (depending on how nice the guy at the lws is, and how good of a mood he is in) Now this seems like alot, but it is by far the most useful welder you can have. You can cut with it, gouge with it, heat with it, weld with it, braze with it, solder with it, even bend glass tubes to make neon signs. (I would like to see you do all that with a mig welder) Now in second place, I would put a good stick welder, they can weld thicker easier, but that is about it. I know you can use a carbon arc torch for heating and such, but it is not nearly as good as a big rosebud on an O/A torch. You can also cut with a stick welder, but the cut looks like it was done with a welding tip. Last in usefulness I would put a mig welder, just because it is basicaly only for welding thiner material. You can not do anything but welding with a mig. Sure you can weld thick stuff with a big mig, but it will be harder then with a stick. Also, mig is the easiest to learn, but the hardest to master, anyone can make a weld with a mig welder in seconds of training, but it will almost always be a poor weld. It is very easy to make cold laps with a mig, where as it is actually fairly hard to do with a stick welder. Look at the tests shield arc did with differnt stick electrodes, and also a mig welder. The mig is stronger, but if anyone can do that with a mig welder within a few days, I would be amazed. It is very easy to make mig beads look that good, but very hard to make them that strong. Where as with the stick welder, it would be much easier to get welds that strong.
Now for people saying O/A is only good for thin metal, and stick is only good for thick, I beg to differ. I have welder 1/4 inch wall pipe to 1/4 inch plate with my O/A torch, and it is very strong, 100% penatration. I have also welded 1/16 inch wall tube onto 1/4 inch angle iron with a lincoln tombstone with 3/32 rods, at 75 amps, and it worked fine, virtualy no burn through. (and I am not a very good welder, you could get as good as I am in a week or 2). I would say O/A first, but you can do well with either stick or O/A, as I said, I have done work I should have done with stick, with O/A, and work I should have done with O/A, with stick.

 

[k0ua]

David you have already been given pretty good advice. I have both O/A and a 160 amp DC stick welder. All of the processes have their place, Stick, O/A, Mig/gasless wire and Tig. Do you not have 30 amp's at 240volt available. ? That is what my little PA160 everlast takes. Stick is versatile and will do a lot of things, but takes a while to learn how. O/A is invaluable for heating and will do many of the things that TIG will do but requires quite a bit of skill, and it is not cheap to set up or to use. Stick is the cheapest to buy and to use. I do small projects in my walk out basement, but If welding anything big or prolonged I just take the tiny Everlast PA160 outside and plug it into an outlet I have on the side of the house with an 25 foot extension cord and have at it. Of course O/A is completely portable. Be advised on O/A that the size of the Ace tank will determine the amount of gas that can be safely withdrawn from it in a given time period. This will preclude the use of a large "rosebud" heating tip on a small tank, and also the larger welding tips for welding thicker material will also require a larger tank. Just some of the things to keep in mind when deciding what to select.
120 volt stick welders are very limited in what they can do, and 120volt Mig welders are doable but usually limited to thin materials or multiple passes on thicker materials. A good Miller or Lincoln or Hobart 120volt Mig will set you back around 1000 for welder and first bottle of Mig mix gas. I hope this has given you some ideas.

James K0UA

 

[MossflowerWoods]

Do you not have 30 amp's at 240volt available?

James K0UA

James,

The electricity is a bit flakey at my house, but yes, I have a 220 for the stove and the dryer, but they are in use.

I need ANOTHER drop of 220 for the welder, right?

That is where I am confused I think... :confused2:

Then, yes I do have a small dry spot in the walk out basement, but it is full of stuff now, hence nowhere for the welder... 50' cord will help that, and I can weld out in the yard....:thumbsup:

David

 

[kaferhaus]

I'm in the fabrication business. We use gas, stick, mig and tig for welding depending on the application.

Don't let anyone fool you, a mig welder will weld anything a stick will, is far easier to use, produces little to no smoke. The down side to mig is you need to be fairly close to the work and it can be expensive due to the cost of the shielding gas. Fluxcore eliminates the gas but is much more expensive overall as the wire is almost triple the cost.

Can you make a good looking but crappy weld with a mig? Yes you can. But a couple hours of practice can easily cure that if you have someone who knows how to weld supervise you.

Mastering any form of welding takes years of practice. I can teach anyone to produce strong welds with a mig machine in a few hours. Will that make them a "welder" ?. Heck no, not even close. But they'll be able to glue pieces of metal together fine for farm use.

Stick welding is messy, hard to learn, hard to see what you're doing etc. etc. But we sure use it a lot for structural work on very heavy (thick) steel because it's faster in that application most of the time.

Gas welding anything over 1/4" is a pita, takes forever and is expensive. Acetylene is crazy expensive.

 

[k0ua]

David just look in you Electrical box and see if there is room for a new 220 volt breaker ( breaker that takes off of both legs of the service) for the welder. Keep in mind you may not want to try to operate the dryer and welder at the same time, depending on your input service capacity, but surely you can schedule your operation of the two appliances. One thing you can do if you have to make room for a new 220/240 volt breaker is move one or two of you 120 volt breakers into "double breakers" that take 2 120volt circuits into a single 120volt breaker slot. Hope that makes sense, if not let me know and I will give a better explaination. So yes make up an extension cord of the length you need. I dont know where the dryer is physically located, but you may could get away with a long cord with a dryer plug on it and just run it into the house and plug into the existing dryer receptacle as needed for welding. I use "SO" cordage to make up the extension cords as it is very flexible, fairly tough covering, and lays flat.

James K0UA

 

[jake98]

Stick welding is messy, hard to learn, hard to see what you're doing etc. etc.

It can't be harder to see than trying to see what's happening under a mig gun.. I'm new at mig, but man, I'm sticking my face way too close, trying to look under there..

 

[PapaPerk]

I'm in the fabrication business. We use gas, stick, mig and tig for welding depending on the application.

Don't let anyone fool you, a mig welder will weld anything a stick will, is far easier to use, produces little to no smoke. The down side to mig is you need to be fairly close to the work and it can be expensive due to the cost of the shielding gas. Fluxcore eliminates the gas but is much more expensive overall as the wire is almost triple the cost.

Can you make a good looking but crappy weld with a mig? Yes you can. But a couple hours of practice can easily cure that if you have someone who knows how to weld supervise you.

Mastering any form of welding takes years of practice. I can teach anyone to produce strong welds with a mig machine in a few hours. Will that make them a "welder" ?. Heck no, not even close. But they'll be able to glue pieces of metal together fine for farm use.

Stick welding is messy, hard to learn, hard to see what you're doing etc. etc. But we sure use it a lot for structural work on very heavy (thick) steel because it's faster in that application most of the time.

Gas welding anything over 1/4" is a pita, takes forever and is expensive. Acetylene is crazy expensive.

Excellent advice!!!

 

[Short Game]

I have an AC/DC Miller sticker. I also have oxy/acetylene and would hate to be without it. I am self taught, have always been short on funds, and run the basic Red Green operation (thanks for the reminder, deereman75).

I love having the option of brazing. I have nearly stopped burning any steel and use various blades to cut when ever I can (I don't miss grinding those gas cuts). I've never had any of those fancy wire feed thingies in my hands and don't even know what mig and tig means. At one time, all I had was gas. I don't want to go back there.

 

[George2615]

All excellent advice. I have 3 means for welding. Oxy/Acetylene, 10KW welder/generator, and a 220V Mig. Each has its own uses. The stick welder I use for 1/4"-1/2" thicker metal welding. Mig for thinner metals. and the O/A for brazing and welding thin metal and as a cutting torch.

 

[flusher]

I'm not ready to buy yet, but I am starting my research.

I'm worried I do not have good enough power, nor is there a space in/near the house I'd feel safe welding, so a stick welder seems not for me.

But there are many negatives to tank welders also.

So, which is better and why? :confused2:

Thanks in advance,

David

Gas welders are nice since they're very portable. Stick welders are portable if you have a portable electric power source to run them.

My advice: build yourself a nice shop with 220V/50 amp service installed and then get yourself a good AC/DC stick welder (mine is a Hobart Stickmate LX from Tractor Supply- $400). Get 10 lb of 7014 and 7024 drag rods to learn how to weld effectively. Then you can tackle some of the more difficult rods like 6011 and 7018.

 

[rankrank1]

All welders and tools have there place and areas where they excel, but for me tool #1 in a primitive metal working shop is a buzzbox stick welder.

My advice: Start searching Craigslist for a Lincoln AC 225 (some have DC125 which is even better), Miller Thunderbolt 225 (Some have DC 150 which is even better), or a Hobart Stickmate 225 (Some have DC 160 which is even better). An AC only welder will sell for $125-$150 used or less. Models with DC will cost $225-$275 used but worth it if you can swing it. Any of these models rarely break and will still be working for your grandkids.

One you have the trusty buzzbox then pick yourself up 90 feet of 3 wire 10 guage SO or SJ type extension cord and plug it into your range receptacle for now - or you can add a circuit. You can reference the Lincoln manual yourself and see it is okay to run the welder up to 90 feet off of 10 guage wire if you choose not to believe me. 90' will give you plenty of length to weld in the yard (which is where I do all my welding). Stick welding also shines in welding outside where welding with MIG and shielding gas does not work well in windy condtions. Consumables for stick are none whereas with MIG they really add up.

A buzzbox welder is about the cheapest tool you can have in a primitive metal working/welding shop. Really the only thing it can NOT do is weld metal thinner than about 16 gauge. Will it always be the best choice for a given application - maybe not but it can do it and do it cheaply. It is more versatile than a simple welder alone as as it can do much more than weld:
a) As stated the buzzbox can weld metal 1/16" thick and thicker metal easily.
b) It is also a primitive cutting tool - throw some 6011 in the stinger and crank the amps up and you have a way to cut metal or pierce holes in metal cheaply. Cuts will not be plasma quality but hey we are talking cheap here.
c) Make or Buy a Twin Carbon Arc torch and you have a way to intensely heat metal very hot for bending, loosening frozen parts, brazing, silver soldering, flame fill weld, etc. (Actually Twin Carbon Arc can potentially up to 1000 Degrees hotter than oxy/acetylene but it will NOT cut metal like oxy/acet can). And Twin Carbon Arc will do it for the mere cost of electricity which is peanuts compared to buying/leasing tanks and buying acetylene.
d) You can even stick weld aluminum in a pinch too.
e) If you get a DC buzzbox then it is even possible to add a budget TIG torch for scratch start Tig but it will require buying an argon bottle and regulator too.

For as little as a mere $125 investment you have a very versatile tool that will never depreciate any further. The same buzzbox that you buy used today For $125 or so will still be worth $125 or more 10 years from now as I said they rarely break. While a buzzbox is not the ideal tool for a pro level shop they are very hard to beat for a backyard shop especially on a per dollar invested basis. (In comparison: Please show me how much work you can do with a mere $125 towards oxy/acet?).

Here is Link to a condensed an informative Twin Carbon Arc thread that I have posted several reference links within.

Weld Talk Message Board and Online Forum - Hobart Welders

 

[evo803]

I had all three things O/A ,mig and stick and sold the stick welder to fund the purchase of a plasma. I found the stick welder sitting idle because given the choice I would chose the MIG , even on stuff over 1/4" . That is my personal preference.

Also check with your homeowners insurance I had to store my tanks in an out building 25' away from my house to be in compliance.

 

[deereman75]

All welders and tools have there place and areas where they excel, but for me tool #1 in a primitive metal working shop is a buzzbox stick welder.

My advice: Start searching Craigslist for a Lincoln AC 225 (some have DC125 which is even better), Miller Thunderbolt 225 (Some have DC 150 which is even better), or a Hobart Handler 225 (Some have DC 160 which is even better). An AC only welder will sell for $125-$150 used or less. Models with DC will cost $225-$275 used but worth it if you can swing it. Any of these models rarely break and will still be working for your grandkids.

One you have the trusty buzzbox then pick yourself up 90 feet of 3 wire 10 guage SO or SJ type extension cord and plug it into your range receptacle for now - or you can add a circuit. You can reference the Lincoln manual yourself and see it is okay to run the welder up to 90 feet off of 10 guage wire if you choose not to believe me. 90' will give you plenty of length to weld in the yard (which is where I do all my welding). Stick welding also shines in welding outside where welding with MIG and shielding gas does not work well in windy condtions. Consumables for stick are none whereas with MIG they really add up.

A buzzbox welder is about the cheapest tool you can have in a primitive metal working/welding shop. Really the only thing it can NOT do is weld metal thinner than about 16 gauge. Will it always be the best choice for a given application - maybe not but it can do it and do it cheaply. It is more versatile than a simple welder alone as as it can do much more than weld:
a) As stated the buzzbox can weld metal 1/16" thick and thicker metal easily.
b) It is also a primitive cutting tool - throw some 6011 in the stinger and crank the amps up and you have a way to cut metal or pierce holes in metal cheaply. Cuts will not be plasma quality but hey we are talking cheap here.
c) Make or Buy a Twin Carbon Arc torch and you have a way to intensely heat metal very hot for bending, loosening frozen parts, brazing, silver soldering, flame fill weld, etc. (Actually Twin Carbon Arc can potentially up to 1000 Degrees hotter than oxy/acetylene but it will NOT cut metal like oxy/acet can). And Twin Carbon Arc will do it for the mere cost of electricity which is peanuts compared to buying/leasing tanks and buying acetylene.
d) You can even stick weld aluminum in a pinch too.
e) If you get a DC buzzbox then it is even possible to add a budget TIG torch for scratch start Tig but it will require buying an argon bottle and regulator too.

For as little as a mere $125 investment you have a very versatile tool that will never depreciate any further. The same buzzbox that you buy used today For $125 or so will still be worth $125 or more 10 years from now as I said they rarely break. While a buzzbox is not the ideal tool for a pro level shop they are very hard to beat for a backyard shop especially on a per dollar invested basis. (In comparison: Please show me how much work you can do with a mere $125 towards oxy/acet?).

Here is Link to a condensed an informative Twin Carbon Arc thread that I have posted several reference links within.

Weld Talk Message Board and Online Forum - Hobart Welders

The other day I tried cutting with a 6011 rod in my tombstone, and it looked like I had cut it with a welding tp on the O/A torch, and it set part of my lawn on fire. I LOVE my old tombstone, but would I choose it over my O/A torch, no way.

 

[rankrank1]

The other day I tried cutting with a 6011 rod in my tombstone, and it looked like I had cut it with a welding tp on the O/A torch, and it set part of my lawn on fire. I LOVE my old tombstone, but would I choose it over my O/A torch, no way.

Reread my post - I clearly said that the buzzbox will not always be the ideal best tool for a given application, but it can do it and do it cheaply. We are talking a mere $125 investment (that will never depreciate any further) here compared to $1000 or more for a set of torches, tanks, and gas. I have a Mig welder too (nearly $800 or more tied up in that), but it is a much less versatile tool than my buzzbox. The mig works great on clean thin metal when used inside and thats it - dirty metal forget it. Using Flux core it works okay outside on thinner stuff but still has to be clean metal. I can not cut with the Mig welder nor can I heat metal with the MIG and also have to buy consumables that really add up like gun liners, tips, gas when MIG mode, or pay a premium for expensive flux core welding wire when not using gas.

For some people owning a torch makes fiscal sense. For infrequent users like me it did not. I mothballed my old Smith torch when my tank lease expired. Considered buying my own bottles, but you will still pay a premium in inspection fees and the refills are pricey. Got tired of paying the expensive fees and the gas just kept skyrocketing. I have not missed it one bit (acetylene is scary stuff anyway). I can accomplish everything that I need to do with the buzzbox for nearly free. If I ever get hard up for money, my buzzbox will be the last piece of equipment to go as it is so versatile and cheap to use in any mode and it will never depreciate below what I paid for it used.

As for improving your cuts with 6011 - refer to the Lincoln owners manual. The recommended technique to use for cutting is in there and much different than a welding technique. That said, even the best cuts from a buzzbox will never match the cuts from a torch or a plasma which are simply better tools for a cutting job albeit pricey tools. I personally do not need the absolute best tool as an infrequent user. An infrequent user like me needs something that is cheap to own, cheap to operate, and rarely ever breaks, and has abolutely zero maintenance or storage issues. A buzzbox fills this need nicely for me - your results may vary.

 

[tcartwri]

I agree, the best way to start out is a used buzz box. The only thing I use gas for anymore is to loosen rusted fasteners.

A chop saw is also a very handy tool.

 

[Short Game]

The only thing I use gas for anymore is to loosen rusted fasteners.

And there is that too, the old acetylene wrench!

===========================

If it weren't for cutting curved lines, and all the many things I can fix with brazing, I could probably live without my O/A. I have a forge, but it is so easy to put on that rosebud for anything that is fairly small, so I do some heating with the torch too.

The years I spent with only O/A (and no electricity) are behind me. I had access for some years to an AC/DC Miller, and when that option went away, well, I just knew it was worth it even to spring for a new one. 6011 is pretty much all I've ever used. I used some nickel to fix a great vice that was on its way to the recyclers. I didn't know what I was doing but that was 8 years ago and I'm still using that great vice.

So David, if it's an either/or situation, I'd do what I could to jump to the next level. I'd not want to be without my tanks/torches or my stick welder. I would think that all my neighbors whose stuff I keep working would agree if they understood how old Bob keeps 'em running.

 

[rankrank1]

I agree, the best way to start out is a used buzz box. The only thing I use gas for anymore is to loosen rusted fasteners.

A chop saw is also a very handy tool.

Make or buy yourself a Twin Carbon arc torch for that buzzbox and you can easily free those rusted fastners. Best part is that you even have 2 modes of operation to free those fastners for the mere cheap cost of electricity.

a) option 1 is to use a conventional flame From the Twin Carbon arc torch to heat the fastner similar to how you would heat the fastner if using oxy/acetleyene.
b) Option 2 is to touch the 2 rods to the rusted fastner (with welder off) then have an assistant flip the welder on. The nut will heat up without a flame through convection which is helpful in preventing damage to sensitive paint areas. Have the assistant turn welder off when temp is reached.

I have a chop saw. Chops saws are handy if you plan to build larger projects from scratch, but they are worthless for most repair based work. I would skip the chopsaw in a budget based shop. I like my chopsaw, but I could easily get by without it if I had to. For repair work a 4 1/2" grinder with a cut-off wheel is much more handy and indispensable - can both cut or grind with it by changing the wheel. Next up would be a sawz-all (useful for woodwork/carpentry too). 3rd choice is then the chopsaw.

 

[kaferhaus]

It can't be harder to see than trying to see what's happening under a mig gun.. I'm new at mig, but man, I'm sticking my face way too close, trying to look under there..

The gun is supposed to be held at an angle... if you can't see, you're doing something horribly wrong....