Which Stick Welder for a New Welder?

[Cacinok]

If it looks too long to read, just skip to the part by the asterisks (*). LOL.

I just started learning to weld a month or so back - I've wanted to for a long time, but finally made it a priority. A friend loaned me his 110v mig to play with. I'm ready to buy my own, but wish to purchase something I won't grow out of too quick. I've been reading all that I can and will probably take a class this fall or at least spend a bunch of Saturdays with a friend who welds for a living.

My metal building is only wired for 110v and poorly at that. Eventually, I'll get 220v out to it, but want to start welding now, as getting 220v may take a while. That being said, there's a dedicated 220v plug about 50' or so from the metal building (for the master bedroom HVAC wall unit).

I know that I could go w/ a mig and it'd be easier starting out, but I want to learn to stick weld, so I have my sights set on a stick welder, herein lies the question:

***Should I go w/ an older stick (220v) and run a long plug into the existing 220 outlet - knowing that I'd lose power and not be able to run the machine at it's full rated output, which really isn't a problem since I'll just be burning sticks to learn, for now. Are there other issues I should be aware of using a long power cord? Or is this an absolute no-no?

***Or should I go w/ something like the Everlast 140 dual voltage stick/tig welder, knowing that even at 220v it will only put out 140 amps, iirc - will I get frustrated w/ only 140 amps too soon? The price is in the ball park as the 220v stick welders I've been looking at, $229. I could at least be able to learn to weld and will have better (not much) amperage than 110v eventually. I know I'd be hoping that Everlast lasts and they honor their warranty. So some ifs involved here.

In this area, 220v AC only (I know this is not as desirable as an AC/DC machine) machines go for $100-$200. The 220v AC/DC machines go for roughly $200-$400 for the older tried and true Lincolns and Millers.

I found a Miller Thunderbolt 225v w/ 100' cord and leads for $100 - I know this is AC only. Lincoln tombstone AC only for $175. Should I hold out for the AC/DC machine as a beginner? How limited would I be w/ an AC only?

I also found a Miller Dialarc 250P ac/dc w/ 100' welding lead and 30' ground for $350.

And a Miller 225 AC/DC Thunderbolt for $300. The seller mentions that it has the variable adjustment versus the snap lock adjustment.

For now I'll just be spending time learning to weld. Eventually I'll maintain/upgrade my tractor and implements and fix whatever else I manage to break on our property. Way in the future, I may look at building a trailer and gates, etc.

Thanks in advance.

Clint.

 

[Mark @ Everlast]

Clint,
I can give you a special TBN deal. Just contact me at my number below.

The 140 will still deliver enough power to handle 1/8" rods. And don't forget it comes with a TIG rig for steel and stainless.

Having a DC welder, is a no brainer when compared to an AC only machine. AC and DC isn't really a bonus in my book either.

Weighing in at less than 20 lbs, the 140 is much smaller and way more portable than anything else you have mentioned,

But I'd still get the thuderbolt, tear it down and strip the cables down and sell it for scrap. You'll turn a slight profit. If its really this cheap, with that long of leads, I'd be careful though unless you know the person.

 

[Cacinok]

Mark, thanks, I'm seriously leaning toward the Everlast 140 b/c of the dual voltage - I could use it now, and it'd be even better when I finally install 220 - I just needed some more opinions.

The Thunderbolt w/ the 100' power cord is about 1.5 hours away, so I wasn't really excited to drive out and look at it. The price is cheap though.


There are way more generator/welder machines around here for sale than 220v plug in machines - guess that's what happens when you live in the oil patch.

 

[dstig1]

Watch CL for a couple weeks and you will find a good deal on a used AC or AC/DC basic welder. Don't worry about the distance as you will not lose enough power over that distance to matter, as long as you use a decent size extension cord. Our local Fleet Farm stores carry a pre-made one by Hobart, or you can make your own with the proper plugs and some 8ga Cu wire (or even 6 if you really want overkill).

AC works fine for beginners, and you have the bonus that you can resell it for at least what you paid for it in the future, when you are looking to upgrade. The classic AC buzzboxes are out there by the billion and are easy to find and to sell.

 

[deereman75]

I would buy an old lincoln or miller ac only buzz box, and use a long cord. I have a 25 foot, 4 gauge cord for my lincoln ac 225, and it works just fine. I am not sure I would buy an everlast, becuase it will not last nearly as long as a tombstone. The ac only is fine for farm/hobby use, and it is just fine to start with.

 

[k0ua]

I will throw in my 2 cents. I have the everlast PA160 it is a 220v welder only, my extension cord for the 220v is 30 ft long #8 SO cord. It works very well, I rarely use over 130 amps for anything I have ever done, usually lot less. I believer the duty cycle of my PA160 is higher than the new 140, but it wont run on 120v and does not come with the tig torch. I have a nice Lincoln buzzbox (225) I used for many years, I havent had it on since I got the Everlast over a year ago.. will never go back to AC.. (unless tig welding aluminum:laughing: with HF). So to sum up In my humble non professional, not a very good welder,opinion.. DC is the way to go. It will instantly make a better looking bead, and make you look like you are a better welder than you are. You can rate my advice at about what you paid for it if you like. But that is my story and I am sticking to it. Good luck in your search.

James K0UA

 

[yomax4]

I would say , buy an inverter dc tig stick of what ever brand offers a built in Hot Start ( Thermal Arc for one ) or other. Strike and restrike on all rods happens instantly. Old Transformer units are hunt and peck to get the arc going and can be very frustrating for a beginner. Buying and hoping to upgrade is a hassle especially when the new inverters are very affordable with great warranties.At least weld with both before buying.

 

[deereman75]

I had no trouble starting the arc when learning to weld, and it was with a 20-30 year old lincoln. I agree dc is better, but I have to say for $100, get a tombstone and see how you like stick welding, it you like it, consider getting a dc machine, if you dont, you can sell it for what you payed for it. If you buy a new dc inverter, and find you hate stick welding, you can maby get half your money back. I also know a farmer who has a rectifier, made to convert an ac welder to a dc welder, he uses it with an ac miller thunderbolt, and it works great, that is another option if you buy a tombstone, and want dc.

(I will hopefuly have DC before too long, going to get a lincoln SA-200 as a restoration project)

 

[Travelover]

I would buy an old lincoln or miller ac only buzz box, and use a long cord. I have a 25 foot, 4 gauge cord for my lincoln ac 225, and it works just fine. I am not sure I would buy an everlast, becuase it will not last nearly as long as a tombstone. The ac only is fine for farm/hobby use, and it is just fine to start with.

+1 Lots of old Lincoln tombstones out there and they last forever. Why buy a new one, especially if you are just starting out? You may find that at first you have a lot of welding to do, but after that, the welder just sits.

 

[Cacinok]

Thanks for the info and opinions. Really good to know that long power leads are not a problem. Getting 220 to the metal building isn't as high on the list of things to do, needs to be done, just not as soon.

Regarding the easier striking of an inverter unit, could you make striking the arc easier by turning up your amps a little? I know your facing burn through so you'd obviously have to be careful. In other words, how useful/necessary is the "hot start"?

I have stick welded, a little. I managed to break my brush hog and my friend who welded it back together let me run some beads. So I know I'll like it, but it did seem a challenge to strike the arc - my friend told me that he should have turned up the amps to make it easier.

As I mentioned earlier, I've always wanted to learn to weld, but never made it a priority. Now, I sit at the office wondering how early I can leave and go home and practice welding.

@K0ua or anyone I'm not familiar w/ #8 SO cord. What is it?

 

[Mark @ Everlast]

On a transformer machine, arc striking is more difficult. Turning amps up will work but by the time you get it where it won't stick, it'll incinerate the rod fairly quickly.

I first welded with an OLD tombstone. And my father has new one...which I have used to help him fix stuff with. I have friends business contacts with them, and yes they do tear up. Watch out for the switch on them. I have seen several where the switch went out. However as far as arc, and weld ease, No comparison to an inverter.

Albeit Lincoln has sold a lot of these, you have to ask yourself, why are people abandoning them and putting them up for sale on C. List or Ebay? Sure are a lot of them. I've found a lot of them are guys trading up to an inverter or getting a heavier machine.

The AC/DC tombstones are only 125 amps on DC...and low duty cycle. Something to compare and think about. Duty cycle on AC isn't that great either for a machine its size.

 

[Travelover]

...........Albeit Lincoln has sold a lot of these, you have to ask yourself, why are people abandoning them and putting them up for sale on C. List or Ebay? Sure are a lot of them. I've found a lot of them are guys trading up to an inverter or getting a heavier machine .............

You don't need to bad mouth a quality product that has performed admirably for decades to sell your imported stuff. If it is so great, it will sell itself.

 

[Shield Arc]

Learning to weld is an up hill battle at best! People go at it from different angles, some go to school, some buy a welder, and books, join Internet forums, and ask questions. I feel the best, and quickest way is one on one instruction from an experienced weldor, that's not to say all weldors can teach! But they surly can show you how to do it. No matter what route you take, don't fool yourself, it's gonna be expensive! But for some of us it is / was an investment. I made a very good living as a weldor.
I'd like to know what the drop out rate of wanna be weldors is? I would guess it's really really high! The only information I have for this conclusion, (and it may not be correct), is the amount of low end buzz box welders on Crag's List for sale. As I said above, learning to weld is an up hill battle, why make that hill steeper with low end equipment that will no doubt frustrate you to no end, and most likely make you quite? I guess it's each individual's decision on how much they want to invest, for the end result.

For the money the Everlast PowerArc 200 is the best SMAW arc I've ever seen! And I have some of the best welding machines ever made, so I know what a quality arc is.

 

[Mark @ Everlast]

Now, how did you get that I was bad mouthing the product? Did you read my post at all? Never said it was a bad product. But I did point out its weaknesses, points to consider in making a purchase for anyone.

By pointing out the fact there are many on the market, many barely used, and its worth considering why, does not mean I was bad mouthing anything. A girl can be pretty, but there may be reasons you don't take her out for a second date, that have nothing to do with her, but with the girl you met after the date.

 

[Gary Fowler]

I learned to weld with an AC machine in high school and Dad bought Lincoln 225 tombstone to us building some 40 foot long trailers. It worked OK for that and the welds never failed but by that time, I had lots of experience in construction with DC machines which weld so much smoother and the variety of welding electrodes available for DC is much greater than AC. There is nothing wrong with using an AC machine, but eventually you will discover DC and then you will want to buy a DC machine. I would go ahead and get DC now or AC/DC. I have AC/DC Miller CC/CV 350 amp machine and it works great although I have to confess that I have never used the AC side at all. This machine will do it all and you can plug in a MIG wire feeder to it if you want. I find it more convenient to use the stick rod for almost all my work and since I use a lot of 7018, I invested in a nice Phoenix 300 # Dry Rod oven to keep them fresh and dry. That is about the only draw back to welding with low hydrogen stick rods is that they need to be kept hot and dry. Many of the folks here on TBN only use wire feeder (MIG or FCAW) welders mainly because they make the beginner welder look good. When running and set properly, they work fantastic but require a lot of upkeep to make them run that way all the time at least compared to a stick welder where you just flip the on switch. Wire feeders need contact tips and liners replaced oftern if you use a lot of wire and generally need more adjustment to keep them working like new. I prefer to use stick for heavy welding and for light delicate work a d TIG cant be beat.

 

[deereman75]

The AC/DC tombstones are only 125 amps on DC...and low duty cycle. Something to compare and think about. Duty cycle on AC isn't that great either for a machine its size.

First of all, they have a 20% duty cycle, and in normal conditions, you cant weld much more then 20% of the time. There is the first bead, which takes 60 seconds at most (to burn a rod), then you have to let it cool for a minute or two, then you have to chip the slag, which takes like 20 seconds, then you have to wire brush, which takes 30 seconds or so, then you have to change the rod, which takes 10 seconds at most, and there is also the time for getting the tools, because they are not always right there, and also time spend getting into position, and getting ready. So, as you can see, you can normaly only weld 20% of the time.

Second, they have a 100% duty cycle at 75 amps, so you can (in theroy) weld 100% of the time with a 3/32 6011.

Finally, you can get rectfiers that plug into the output of an AC welder, to convert it into DC. I had mentioned one earlier, and they work great, that way you can have the full 225 amps, and full 20% duty cycle, on DC.

 

[Shield Arc]

First of all, they have a 20% duty cycle, and in normal conditions, you cant weld much more then 20% of the time. There is the first bead, which takes 60 seconds at most (to burn a rod), then you have to let it cool for a minute or two, then you have to chip the slag, which takes like 20 seconds, then you have to wire brush, which takes 30 seconds or so, then you have to change the rod, which takes 10 seconds at most, and there is also the time for getting the tools, because they are not always right there, and also time spend getting into position, and getting ready. So, as you can see, you can normaly only weld 20% of the time.

Oh grasshopper you should have been around before wire feeders hit construction. Back in the day, we stuffed one rod after another. Hand full of rods in one hand, stinger in the other, never lift your hood! One rod after another as long as you could go. Wire feeders made life so much easier!:laughing:

 

[BlacknTan]

I'm not a professional welder, but I have alot of buddies that are, and they all have a T'bolt or Tombstone in their shops besides the fancy equipment.

It's a good, and inexpensive place to start...

Think long and hard before investing your hard earned bucks into one of the "johnny come lately" asian imports that may or may not be around tomorrow, or require the entire machine be returned for even minor service.

 

[Mark @ Everlast]

Oh grasshopper you should have been around before wire feeders hit construction. Back in the day, we stuffed one rod after another. Hand full of rods in one hand, stinger in the other, never lift your hood! One rod after another as long as you could go. Wire feeders made life so much easier!:laughing:

Always been my experience, you do the clean up when you're done. A quick tap on the end of the slag if necessary is all it takes and you keep going as soon as you toss another rod in the holder. Of course, if your the kind of welder that stops to take a smoke break between rods to walk back to the hot box to grab a single rod, look at your weld, eyeball the line, chip the slag, wire brush it, then dab around, stand up, and then wipe your brow, before redonning your hood, and readjusting it by flipping it up and down a few times, before you start welding again, 20% is a generous setting (I've welded with a few of them). But if you weld like that you won't be around long on a job site, or if you work for yourself and do it for a living, you'll go broke. If you weld for 2 minutes and then take to clean up, then there's something wrong. 60% is a WELL established standard for welding time on commercial stick units because that's about the most efficient ratio of welding time and cleaning/changing out time. Its been around a long time, and I don't imagine that until they make fluxless rods for SMAW, it will every change. A good welder probably has the next rod in hand before he finishes the rod he is welding with...multitasking both hands.

 

[deereman75]

Well I was saying for normal farm/hobby use,20% is fine, if you need to be welding that fast, get a lincoln idealarc, or engine drive. Also, those were just my calculations, taking into account the speed I can weld at.