Antique Aircraft

[Runner]

I don't know if anyone else has a problem with this, but it bugs me to see groups out flying/giving rides in irreplaceable antique aircraft such as the B-17 in the attached news item. I know they own it and it's theirs to do with as they please, but, let's face it - the machines weren't that reliable when they were new, and now that they're 60 or 70 years old, it's just a matter of time before they will be destroyed by some kind of mishap.

This plane was in my city recently and I got a couple of pictures of it. Just found out that it crashed and burned a couple of weeks later. Such a waste and now, it won't be there for future generations to see.

Since their stated goals are usually the preservation of the planes, you'd think they would not be taking such chances with them. I guess they just feel they have to do this to make enough money to keep up with the maintenance, etc.

Video: World War II plane burns after emergency landing - Courier News

 

[ahoglen]

What good is a plane that does not fly?

 

[joemd11]

Those airplanes were very reliable when new and quite resilient. They routinely suffered major battle damage but still managed to get the crews home. With proper maintenance and inspections there is no reason they can't continue to fly.

 

[ray66v]

So, you think they should all be put in museums, were they would be safe?


Bradley Air Museum
The Windsor Locks tornado scored a direct hit on the Bradley Air Museum. 23 aircraft were destroyed and most of the rest were severely damaged.

Yankee Air Museum
The Yankee Air Museum facility burned to the ground. Nobody was hurt in the blaze, which started for unknown reasons in a storage room, but the one-of-a-kind ex-NASA YOV-10A Bronco prototype (152881) was inside the hangar and was destroyed along with several other aircraft.

Weeks Air Museum
The Weeks Air Museum on Kendall Tamiami Airport is dedicated to the preservation and restoration of aircraft through the end of the World War II era. In the early 1990s the Museum was virtually destroyed by Hurricane Andrew and many of the vintage aircraft were damaged beyond repair.

San Diego Aerospace Museum
The San Diego Fire Department responded to one of the city's most spectacular fires. The Electric Building in Balboa Park burned to the ground in a third-alarm fire. The Electric Building housed the Aerospace Museum and contained vintage airplanes, mementos and artifacts.

The Lone Star Flight Museum
The museum reported heavy damage from Hurricane Ike, stating on September 16th that the hangars and hall of fame had received seven to eight feet of water and the lobby three to four. Damaged aircraft include a B-58A and F-100 on loan from the US Air Force Museum, Consolidated PBY-5A, Dehavilland DH-82A, Grumman F3F-2, Lockheed PV-2D, and Stinson L-5. Most of the airworthy planes were flown out of the museum prior to the hurricane. Those remaining as well as the static displays were largely destroyed or heavily damaged.

Ironically, in this case they had to be able to fly the aircraft, to be able save them. In order for an aircraft to be flyable, and the crew to be proficient, they need to fly on a regular basis.

The cost related to flying an aircraft like a B-17 are very high. These costs are deferred by being displayed at, and or flown in air shows, giving rides, and collecting donations.

Seeing an aircraft on display in a museum, is only marginally better than watching it on TV, or reading about it in a book. It can never compare to the sight, the smell, and the sound of it flying over your head. This also needs to be preserved.

A better place for your concerns, could be the damage and destruction of irreplaceable aircraft, and engines, each year in air racing competitions.

Vintage aircraft, such as P-51's often have heavy modifications like their wings chopped, and their engines run to the point engine failure is almost eminent. Crashes are not at all uncommon, as they race at unimaginable speeds, wing tip to wing tip, around a course, 50 feet above the ground.

 

[Baby Grand]

That particular airframe was destroyed by the tornado that hit the Windsor Locks Air Museum. It was purchased by the group that lost it last week and completely restored it, thanks to donations and the groups own blood, sweat & tears. It was restored for the express purpose of "flying/giving rides".

Part of the business of preservation is getting people interested enough to donate money so they can afford to do the preservation in the first place. No flying, no money, no preserved plane. You can get a lot more people interested in preservation if they can experience the miracle of flight, as ray66v points out. You can also get a lot more people interested in the planes' preservation if you bring the plane to them, rather than hope they will come to the plane. I was able to walk through both a flying B-17 & a B-24 (next to the DH-98 Mosquito, my personal favorite warbird) because they flew to Sikorsky Airport, across the street from where I worked (AVCO Lycoming).

All planes are subject to bad luck, just like people. If you ask the wartime crew members about how safe they thought their B-17 was, I think you will find that, aside from getting shot at, they would agree that it was a safe & reliable aircraft. As evidence of that, how many jet aircraft can you think of that can safely touch down in a soggy corn field without crashing?

If the fire trucks had been able to get to the plane, it probably could have been saved. Many newspapers incorrectly described the event as a "Crash", which it most definitely was not.

 

[MossRoad]

I don't know if anyone else has a problem with this, but it bugs me to see groups out flying/giving rides in irreplaceable antique aircraft such as the B-17 in the attached news item. I know they own it and it's theirs to do with as they please, but, let's face it - the machines weren't that reliable when they were new, and now that they're 60 or 70 years old, it's just a matter of time before they will be destroyed by some kind of mishap.

This plane was in my city recently and I got a couple of pictures of it. Just found out that it crashed and burned a couple of weeks later. Such a waste and now, it won't be there for future generations to see.

Since their stated goals are usually the preservation of the planes, you'd think they would not be taking such chances with them. I guess they just feel they have to do this to make enough money to keep up with the maintenance, etc.

Video: World War II plane burns after emergency landing - Courier News

I have mixed feelings on this subject. I worked at our local airport for 6 years back in the 80s and had the privilege of seeing, touching and fueling many vintage aircraft at annual air shows. And I got to meet many, many of their owners, pilots, support crews, etc... One year they brought in a B17. They were giving press rides to promote the air show. They had one seat left open and asked me if I wanted to go for a ride. I turned to one of my employees, who was about 10 years older than me and offered him the ride instead. I believe he was a Vietnam veteran, and in my mind he was my elder even though I was the boss. He hopped on and went for a ride. On the landing, they slammed the tail down too hard and drove the tail wheel up through the fuselage, doing lots of damage. We joked about him surviving a B17 crash and me passing the seat to him, knowing something was going to happen. The plane had to stay in town for several weeks while repairs were made, so I got to see way more of it than most folks. :laughing:

The point being, if it is in a museum, you have to go to it to see it. Many, many folks cannot afford to make those trips due to finances, jobs schedules, family, etc... and will never get the chance to see them. If they fly them to a city near you, then more folks have a better chance of getting to see them. That is why I am a big fan of traveling museum exhibits. Take the art (or airplane) to the masses.

On the other hand, any time you move a piece of art (or airplane) you take the chance of damaging it, sometimes beyond repair. And then it is a huge loss for all of mankind.

So, go see them if you have the chance weather they be in a museum or at an air show as you may never get the chance to see them again if they crash or are destroyed sitting in a museum. It could truly be a once in a lifetime experience.


On a side note, we were in the Smithsonian air and space museum on Tuesday in D.C. and then we were in the Air Force Museum in Dayton on Thursday. While the Smithsonian was great for history and theory of flight, my family and I enjoyed the Air Force Museum 10 times more. There are over 300 planes, rockets and missiles in 3 hangars! Walking into the Cold War hangar you see a B2 with a B1 and and SR71 behind it all in one sight. I got goose bumps!!! :laughing: It is absolutely a must see for everyone. And, like the Smithsonian, it is free!!!!! :thumbsup:
GO TO DAYTON!!!
GO TO DAYTON!!!
GO TO DAYTON!!!

 

[Scooby074]

Unless theyre totally beyond repair, i hate to see trailer queens.

That plane "died" doing what it was born to do.. that is flying. Better than rotting away in a hanger

No different than a classic Ferrari that hits the wall in a race. Like this 250TR..

YouTube - ‪12,2 million Ferrari 250 TR Crash at the Monterey Historics [HD]‬‏

Usually it can be rebuilt. The aircraft could have likely been saved if it didnt burn.

 

[Bird]

On a side note, we were in the Smithsonian air and space museum on Tuesday in D.C. and then we were in the Air Force Museum in Dayton on Thursday. While the Smithsonian was great for history and theory of flight, my family and I enjoyed the Air Force Museum 10 times more. There are over 300 planes, rockets and missiles in 3 hangars! Walking into the Cold War hangar you see a B2 with a B1 and and SR71 behind it all in one sight. I got goose bumps!!! :laughing: It is absolutely a must see for everyone. And, like the Smithsonian, it is free!!!!! :thumbsup:
GO TO DAYTON!!!
GO TO DAYTON!!!
GO TO DAYTON!!!

Yep, the first time we were there we were a bit rushed on August 24, 1990, but when we went back with more time, we spent 2 days there on September 1 & 2, 1993. I visited the Smithsonian in the Spring of 1986. In January, 1990, we visited the Pima County Air Museum and Davis-Monthan AFB in Tucson, AZ. And on November 8, 1991, we visited the Naval Aviation Museum in Pensacola, FL. In my opinion, the Air Force Museum in Dayton is the best, followed by the Naval Aviation Museum.

 

[Berniep]

Love those old planes and think they should be preserved but love to see them fly like they were meant to.
Saw a Ford Tri-Motor fly over yesterday. Loved it.

 

[crash325]

Several years ago I got to ride in the Beech Stagger wing in the pictures. It was quite a ride. The owner let a high time airline pilot fly it for a while. Between the 2 of them they put it through its paces. Verticle stalls, low engine tail slides & so on. They are a little tricky to land. Owner let the pilot do the approach, then took over for the landing. :thumbsup: If anything the plane was better than brand new.

 

[Brad_Blazer]

I went to the AF museum back in '85 when I was at Wright Pat. for Military Freefall training in their vertical wind tunnel.

What a fantastic museum! I remember most the Valkyrie, Bockscar, the X-15, and the H-bombs.

National Museum of the USAF - Exhibits

My opinion: Fly 'em if you can! There are plenty of junkers in the desert and scattered in air parks & museums all over the country.

 

[ray66v]

i hate to see trailer queens.

Actually, we call unflown/under flown aircraft "hangar queens".

Cleveland has one of the nicest collections of antique automobiles in the world, at the Western Reserve Historical Society, Crawford Auto Museum.

The Curator once told me most of the collection is drivable, and every vehicle that is drivable, is driven on the street at least twice per year, to help keep them that way.

 

[Sigarms]

I don't know if anyone else has a problem with this, but it bugs me to see groups out flying/giving rides in irreplaceable antique aircraft such as the B-17 in the attached news item. I know they own it and it's theirs to do with as they please, but, let's face it - the machines weren't that reliable when they were new, and now that they're 60 or 70 years old, it's just a matter of time before they will be destroyed by some kind of mishap.

This plane was in my city recently and I got a couple of pictures of it. Just found out that it crashed and burned a couple of weeks later. Such a waste and now, it won't be there for future generations to see.

Some time ago, I saw an ad in the paper for a ride in this B-17. Ironically enough, my father was going to be in town visiting me the same time, and I booked a flight for him for a early Christmas present.

My dad enlisted in the Air Force in 1950 and got out around 1976. Although he never flew in many WWII aircraft, his three older brothers served during WWII, and the only thing he heard about growing up was those "older" planes which flew during WWII.

It was the BEST Christmas present I could of bought him (dad).

The local paper also did an article on the local flight of this plane because it so happened that two other "paying customers" on a flight were actual flight crew members who flew on that same model plane in WWII. From what I remember, one man who was a pilot, would actually argue with your comment on how reliable they were (interesting enough, seemed to be more reliable than the F104 Starfighter, that came out after the B-17 listening to my father talk LOL).

You're right, it's the owners plane, and he can do ANYTHING he pleases with HIS plane.

Some pics of my dads flight on the Liberty Bell in 2005

All planes are subject to bad luck, just like people. If you ask the wartime crew members about how safe they thought their B-17 was, I think you will find that, aside from getting shot at, they would agree that it was a safe & reliable aircraft. As evidence of that, how many jet aircraft can you think of that can safely touch down in a soggy corn field without crashing?

If the fire trucks had been able to get to the plane, it probably could have been saved. Many newspapers incorrectly described the event as a "Crash", which it most definitely was not.

VERY well said sir.

 

[whistlepig]

I have mixed feelings on this subject. I worked at our local airport for 6 years back in the 80s and had the privilege of seeing, touching and fueling many vintage aircraft at annual air shows. And I got to meet many, many of their owners, pilots, support crews, etc... One year they brought in a B17. They were giving press rides to promote the air show. They had one seat left open and asked me if I wanted to go for a ride. I turned to one of my employees, who was about 10 years older than me and offered him the ride instead. I believe he was a Vietnam veteran, and in my mind he was my elder even though I was the boss. He hopped on and went for a ride. On the landing, they slammed the tail down too hard and drove the tail wheel up through the fuselage, doing lots of damage. We joked about him surviving a B17 crash and me passing the seat to him, knowing something was going to happen. The plane had to stay in town for several weeks while repairs were made, so I got to see way more of it than most folks. :laughing:

The point being, if it is in a museum, you have to go to it to see it. Many, many folks cannot afford to make those trips due to finances, jobs schedules, family, etc... and will never get the chance to see them. If they fly them to a city near you, then more folks have a better chance of getting to see them. That is why I am a big fan of traveling museum exhibits. Take the art (or airplane) to the masses.

On the other hand, any time you move a piece of art (or airplane) you take the chance of damaging it, sometimes beyond repair. And then it is a huge loss for all of mankind.

So, go see them if you have the chance weather they be in a museum or at an air show as you may never get the chance to see them again if they crash or are destroyed sitting in a museum. It could truly be a once in a lifetime experience.


On a side note, we were in the Smithsonian air and space museum on Tuesday in D.C. and then we were in the Air Force Museum in Dayton on Thursday. While the Smithsonian was great for history and theory of flight, my family and I enjoyed the Air Force Museum 10 times more. There are over 300 planes, rockets and missiles in 3 hangars! Walking into the Cold War hangar you see a B2 with a B1 and and SR71 behind it all in one sight. I got goose bumps!!! :laughing: It is absolutely a must see for everyone. And, like the Smithsonian, it is free!!!!! :thumbsup:
GO TO DAYTON!!!
GO TO DAYTON!!!
GO TO DAYTON!!!

You would have to go to the Air Fair at Wright-Patterson in Dayton to appreciate these planes. Wright-Patterson in Dayton is a battle ready and full fledged American combat airport. The air force museum at Wright-Patterson is awesome. But to crawl inside a fully functional and flying B-17 and then be able to talk with the vets that flew them in WWII is pretty much hard to beat.

 

[Runner]

"You're right, it's the owners plane, and he can do ANYTHING he pleases with HIS plane."

Yes, and now, it's gone forever.

"If the fire trucks had been able to get to the plane, it probably could have been saved. Many newspapers incorrectly described the event as a "Crash", which it most definitely was not. "

Exactly my point - it didn't even take a "crash" to do the thing in. Probably just an electrical short or fuel leak. But the result is the same - gone forever.

I can't even believe they make enough money to cover the insurance to fly one of those things around, much less enough for fuel, maintenance, rent for hangar space, etc., but I guess they must be able to make ends meet.

I have mixed feelings about them too. I've attended many airshows expressly for the purpose of seeing (and hearing, and smelling, and feeling..) the glory of these machines. I've been to Dayton, and it truly is a magnificent place.

Maybe it's just thoughts of my own mortality as I enter middle age that colors my views on this subject at this point.

I suppose as long as there is at least one sitting in a museum somewhere, or at least a picture in a book, that's all we really need. Heck, in a blink of an eye, most of us won't be here anymore either, so who cares?

 

[riptides]

Gosh, too bad for the plane.

The public HAS to see these aircraft in the air. There is so much history and they tell of great sacrifice, honor and duty.

To just see them in a hangar or museum only tells a small part of the story.

I imagine the owners are heart broken over the loss, it takes a special group of people to get those planes in the air and keep them there.

 

[ray66v]

Aircraft are not people, so they are not "gone forever".

Flying ME 262's were long "gone forever". But, now you can own one, or just ride in one.

In January 2003, the American Me 262 Project, based in Everett, Washington, completed flight testing to allow for delivery of 5 near-exact reproductions of several versions of the Me 262 including at least two B-1c two-seater variants, one A-1c single seater and two "convertibles" that could be switched between the A-1c and B-1c configurations.

These aircraft look exactly like the originals, The only changes that were made, were to address important safety issues.

Gentlemen, we can build them, we have the technology. We can make them better, stronger, faster.

 

[dmccarty]

My University was built on a WWII Army Airfield. The roads and parking lots used to be runaways. Part of the old airbase was still and airfield. One year a B17 and B24 flew in for a visit. When they left I went down to the end of the runway to get photos. After takeoff the planes circled the field a couple of times before heading off....

Seeing a plane in a museum is one thing....

Hearing and feeling those big piston engines is a completely different thing.

Fly 'em for as long as you can I say.

The EAA, Experimental Aircraft Association, flies around a B17 you can ride. One year I hope to get a ride. :thumbsup: Tain't cheap but it is a once in a lifetime opportunity.

Later,
Dan

 

[V1Rotate]

Wow, I'm impressed with all the responses to this subject. Considering that this is a tractor forum and not an aviation forum. I think this shows the emotional attachments people with the history of this country and the bravery and patriotism of the crews that flew these planes.
If you go to an airshow and walk up to one of these planes you might see an old man standing next to it with a tear in his eye. He is remembering his friends that were lost in combat as well as his own experiences. I think it is vital that we keep these old warbirds flying, not only to honor those who flew them but also to educate future generations.

 

[MossRoad]

.... so back in the early 1980's I was working at the South Bend, Indiana airport and at one of the shows they bring in this big old bomber plane for display.

Well, there was this strange little old local man that used to ride around on a decorated bicycle with several baskets full of junk. He always wore a bow tie and a hard hat and would come to the airport to watch planes often. He was out near this plane talking to our mechanic about his days in the war and said he used to fly on one of those F1 F1s. (see attached). Now, our mechanic didn't quite know what to say at that point. He didn't know if the guy was wacky or perhaps an old veteran with some mental challenges. So he just kind of nodded his head and got one of the people that were giving the tours to let the old timer get up close to the plane.