Are Plasma Cutters "Finicky"?

[Mark @ Everlast]

On the foreign part of your comment a minimal amount of foreign parts beats a 100% foreign part machine any day [ speaking as one that tries to buy American].

There are quite a number of parts from US companies in our machines...that's the point.


SA,
I have done it. Lower the power settings and it can be done...a little tricky, but doable. I think getting the nut above the stud temperature is key. If you wash it off, it seems (if I remember right) you may slightly nick the threads, but nothing not manageable.

 

[Dargo]

So how do you be fair to both?

Nothing personal, but the only "fair" I care about is the fair part of getting the best product for my dollars spent. I did not one lick of looking here before I bought my plasma cutter, but I looked at dozens of cheapo models that the 'hobby' guys had purchased from various locations and then I looked at the machines used on farms, small and large fab shops and shops that are about the size of mine. After looking, and using their equipment, it was a really easy decision for me except the "what size" part. I don't know if the 1250 is a really common size for Hypertherm, but that's what I ended up with and couldn't be happier.

I've had zero down time. Zero problems and far less than $20 in consumables in the last few years. That's the only "fair" that even remotely concerns me. I know nothing about the Chinese machines Everlast sells. The Chinese generally build to spec. So, some of their stuff can be complete and total trash and some can be superior stuff. If you want a "fair" comparison, I'd suggest Everlast investing in a Hypertherm 1250 and doing a video on comparing their machine's performance to their competition's on the exact same materials and posting the results on youtube. Doing that, including a long extended run cut (to see duty cycle and stability under a load) would allow me to decide which Chinese version of product they are selling since simply saying it's made in China really doesn't mean much to me due to the huge disparity in quality in products exported from there.

 

[Gary Fowler]

Cutting of the nut from a bolt uses the "weakness" that an OA rig wont cut mutiple plates stacked on top of each other. As long as you heat the nut and not the bolt, with an OA rig you just cut it quickly and the O2 will oxidize the nut before the bolt gets hot enough to do any damage. The dirtier the bolt the better. I would think that you would really have to have a steady hand with a plasma rig as Jim says it cuts multiple stacked plates with ease where as an OA rig can do it, it just takes finesse.
I loved cutting with a Plasma rig at work back when I welded for a living. I just think that they should be treated as a Ferrari of cutting equipment. I wouldnt recommend that a first time driver be given a Ferrari nor would I recommend to anyone that it be their one and only car. How many hobbist really use stainless, copper, aluminum enough that that they need a plasma rig just so they can cut exotic metals. I would think, not many. IF you do, then by all means get a plasma cutter, but by the same token, the guy that doesnt know what he needs to buy is not going to be working with exotic material either.

 

[jimcolt]

Gary,

I agree with you on the technique of using the Oxy-fuel torch to remove a nut from a bolt. The Oxy-fuel torch uses an exothermic reaction (rapid oxidation of steel at an elevated temperature)...so if the nut is at oxidation temp and the bolt is not...then it is relatively easy to learn this technique.

An air plasma is both exothermic (from the 20% oxygen content in air) and thermal (hottest man made heat source at roughly 25,000 degreesF)....so in order to separate a bolt from a nut....you have to develop a good technique and good timing.

However....for cutting materials such as structural steel, flat plate....and of course non-ferrous.....it is far easier to learn and use todays plasma systems. They can drag right on the steel, no gas pressures to set, no pre-heat. Rust, scale, paint, platings do not bother todays major brand plasmas.

I would not give up my oxy-fuel rig for anything.....but you won't take my plasma away either! I have one on my cnc machine...and 4 others with hand torches.

Jim Colt Hypertherm

 

[crazyal]

If any of you get to NH....contact me, and I'll personally give you a tour of our main plant where all of the Hypertherm units are built....we are proud to show what we do. Just remember...I can't sell you anything!

Jim Colt Hypertherm

This spring I may take you up on that offer. I'm not that far away and often travel to Nashua.

 

[crazyal]

On the foreign part of your comment a minimal amount of foreign parts beats a 100% foreign part machine any day [ speaking as one that tries to buy American].

It's no longer that simple. I work for a large American company making products that get sent to China for assembly that then get shipped all over the world.

I wish I could buy American made all the time. But like most I just can't afford to do that. I also like to buy local however with the age of the internet I can simply make a few clicks and find what I need for much less time and gas needed to drive around. Plus I can look for reviews and other models to compare it to.

 

[crazyal]

Nothing personal, but the only "fair" I care about is the fair part of getting the best product for my dollars spent. I did not one lick of looking here before I bought my plasma cutter, but I looked at dozens of cheapo models that the 'hobby' guys had purchased from various locations and then I looked at the machines used on farms, small and large fab shops and shops that are about the size of mine. After looking, and using their equipment, it was a really easy decision for me except the "what size" part. I don't know if the 1250 is a really common size for Hypertherm, but that's what I ended up with and couldn't be happier.

I've had zero down time. Zero problems and far less than $20 in consumables in the last few years. That's the only "fair" that even remotely concerns me. I know nothing about the Chinese machines Everlast sells. The Chinese generally build to spec. So, some of their stuff can be complete and total trash and some can be superior stuff. If you want a "fair" comparison, I'd suggest Everlast investing in a Hypertherm 1250 and doing a video on comparing their machine's performance to their competition's on the exact same materials and posting the results on youtube. Doing that, including a long extended run cut (to see duty cycle and stability under a load) would allow me to decide which Chinese version of product they are selling since simply saying it's made in China really doesn't mean much to me due to the huge disparity in quality in products exported from there.

My budget didn't allow me enough to buy a Hyperthem powerplasma 30. I would love to have a 1250 but I just don't have the need for it. Maybe someday I'll want to upgrade. So my choices were, used, Everlast (or equal), or OA torches. Torches raised my insurance up quite a bit and I have access to a couple of sets if needed. I looked for used for 6 months and the best I could find was units that had years of hard use. So I went with Everlast. As it was I spent more than I was planning on.

 

[jimcolt]

Crazyal,


Northern VT, eh? I was born in Newport, spent most of my summers growing up in Derby on lake Salem.

Jim

This spring I may take you up on that offer. I'm not that far away and often travel to Nashua.

 

[Shield Arc]

Normally when I cut a nut off a bolt I'll get the nut hot start cutting on the outside edge, and work my way to the bolt then slice down until I can just start to see the threads of the bolt. Once the cut is made and there is just a thin layer of steel covering the threads, I'll smack the nut with a hammer, as in trying to get the nut to rotate.

Last time I remember cutting a nut off, it was on a 3-inch bolt. Had a 2-man crew using a 100-ton hydraulic jack to tighten the bolts. The hydraulic cylinder was the type with a hole through the center of it, and you use a jacking chair with a series of nuts. Can't really remember what went wrong, I think the crew got out of sequence and loaded this one bolt so much that the 100-ton jack would not release the nut. So I got elected to cut the nut. These were not bolts but 30-feet long studs for a bridge. I used the same technique as above, but with 100 + tons on that nut I didn't even have to get very close to the threads before she let go. It sounded like a cannon went off when the nut gave up!:laughing::laughing::laughing:

 

[crazyal]

Crazyal,


Northern VT, eh? I was born in Newport, spent most of my summers growing up in Derby on lake Salem.

Jim

Newport is a little over a half hour north of me. I've been by Lake Salem but never stopped. I use to go to a motocross track not far from there. I did make the mistake once in Derby Line of driving down the hill and crossing the border in a company truck. :laughing: Wow was the border patrol mad.

 

[toy]

It's no longer that simple. I work for a large American company making products that get sent to China for assembly that then get shipped all over the world.

I wish I could buy American made all the time. But like most I just can't afford to do that. I also like to buy local however with the age of the internet I can simply make a few clicks and find what I need for much less time and gas needed to drive around. Plus I can look for reviews and other models to compare it to.

Did you look at a Thermal Dynamics of a comparable size to what you ended up getting? Now I know that not all of it is USA made, but some of Thermal Dynamics is USA made and assembled, it would be good to know where the machines were made and what percentage from each of the countries where they were made and assembled. Most of my tools are older USA made and will be here probably long after I have gone to my long home, I am not fond of this disposable wasteful society that we live in now. I intentionally pointed out that not all of the Thermal Dynamics was made in the USA because I knew if I didn't it would be mentioned in order to dismiss it as a viable machine for those looking to get a plasma cutter.

Jim Colt I wish your company great success and if there is any comparison tests done let your people run your machine, I would be skeptical of a test where my competition ran both their machine and mine also as one poster suggested. I recently saw a commercial where those two men that squalls at you were telling how many tools their tool replaced and one of the tools was a hacksaw and they showed the hacksaw blade struggling and breaking but the hacksaw blade looked like it had tape on it where the break occurred.

 

[jimcolt]

Trust me....Hypertherm puts virtually every plasma system through the same tests that we put ours through. Reason being.....each design has its advantages and disadvantages, and we need to know which systems have better features or performance output so we can make sure that that advantage does not continue!

We choose not to share the outcome of this type of testing for a few reasons....most notably, the general public does not believe in the data from tests unless the products are tested in a totally independent manor. Further....detailed data from comparative testing provides valuable information for competitors.....why give them all the details regarding why one product is superior?

Hypertherm has never claimed to have the lowest priced products, just the best performing and lowest operating cost. If the purchase price does not fit your budget...then clearly the best choice is a plasma cutter that does! Often, a used Hypertherm or other major brand is the best bang for the buck....unfortunately you do not find many used Hypertherm systems on the market.

Jim Colt Hypertherm

 

[toy]

Trust me....Hypertherm puts virtually every plasma system through the same tests that we put ours through. Reason being.....each design has its advantages and disadvantages, and we need to know which systems have better features or performance output so we can make sure that that advantage does not continue!

We choose not to share the outcome of this type of testing for a few reasons....most notably, the general public does not believe in the data from tests unless the products are tested in a totally independent manor. Further....detailed data from comparative testing provides valuable information for competitors.....why give them all the details regarding why one product is superior?

Hypertherm has never claimed to have the lowest priced products, just the best performing and lowest operating cost. If the purchase price does not fit your budget...then clearly the best choice is a plasma cutter that does! Often, a used Hypertherm or other major brand is the best bang for the buck....unfortunately you do not find many used Hypertherm systems on the market.

Jim Colt Hypertherm

I do trust that you do that, it would only be wise to do it. In the manner that you are talking about it would be for the companies internal use to better their product only and not for use to try and sell a product. The local welding supply houses need to keep at least one machine on hand for the customer to see and if they have one they need to know how much they want for it.

 

[petes]

....Often, a used Hypertherm or other major brand is the best bang for the buck....unfortunately you do not find many used Hypertherm systems on the market.

Jim Colt Hypertherm

Not to gloat (well, maybe a little), but I just may be the luckiest guy on the forum. A few months ago I picked up a used Hypertherm PowerMax 800 for only $300. It "needed work" (hence the $400 asking price). I got it home spent 30 minutes of looking it over and blowing out the dust, making a cord/plug, setting voltage, and changing the consumables (it came with a nearly complete consumables kit, too!) to replace the electrode that had BEEN BURNED BACK 1/4" (!!), it fired up and I sliced the end off a piece of 3/8 bar like butter. The only thing I can figure is the employees at the previous owners company liked play around and use it as a light saber until it quit (they don't like firing when there's nothing to cut).

It paid for itself and more a few days later when I "unwelded" a poorly built trailer hitch that some schmuck had welded to the frame of my motorhome. Gouging welds is a fantastic ability (although my enthusiasm was slightly tempered due to it being overhead, in tight spaces laying underneath a motorhome... it's still molten metal spray, and no way to get away from it).

I'm building a snowplow for my B7100 now (the blade is a section of a 120gal propane tank), and having all kinds of fun with my plasma. I don't find it finicky at all.

A couple huge advantages:
Most parts you can pick up with bare hands immediately after cutting. Don't do that with oxy-ace!
Patterns are super easy. I've been making mine out of 1/8" pressboard doorskin scraps cut on a bandsaw, but just yesterday used a piece of thick cardboard. It doesn't burn!
Short straight cuts I just hold the guide (usually the same piece of pressboard) by hand on the material. Cutting arcs? clamp a piece of thin scrap wood with a screw poking up for the center, and another as an "arm" pivoting on the screw with a hole in the end for the torch at the radius distance... took less than a minute minutes to jig up for cutting 12" radius "C" shapes for the snowplow frame, and less than 10min to cut out 4 of them perfectly.. Probably 3 minutes of actual cutting time to whack the ends off the 24" dia LP tank and cut the 4ft body into three sections. I used a piece of tightly tied baling twine (!) as a torch guide while cutting the ends off.. OK, I had to replace the twine after I burned through it (once on each end)... but it was A PIECE OF STRING only 1/4" from the cut!. 1x1x1/8 angle was a guide for the straight runs. The cuts turned out so clean that no grinding is required.

Disadvantages - I still don't have a heat source for making things cherry red (bending metal, unsticking nuts, etc. )
It's not as portable as a torch for remote location work
I had to upgrade my air compressor (which was a good thing)
I have to exercise self control so I don't cut up usable material "just for fun".
I can't sleep at night due to thinking about how cool a CNC table would be.

 

[Diamondpilot]

Get a dry air supply and no. The dry air supply is the key.

Chris

 

[rankrank1]

...Disadvantages - I still don't have a heat source for making things cherry red (bending metal, unsticking nuts, etc. )...

If you have an arc welder look into buying/or making a "twin carbon arc torch" head for your welder. It is old school technology and you have to wear your welding helmet, but it will actually heat metal hotter than oxy/acetylene will. Plus, you never have to lease bottles, run out of gas at the worst time, etc. again. You can braze with it and real savy user's can even improvise tig weld with it (I am not quite that savey yet though as most of my twin carbon arc flames seem more comparable to a rosebud tip on oxy/acet.).

It is also possible to use a twin carbon arc to loosen rusty bolts without any flame damage to the surrounding areas whatsoever by simply touching the two carbon rods on the nut and then turn the welder on - it will heat the nut cherry red without a flame. A very cheap must have tool for the occasional user in my opinion. A $10 box of the carbon rods will last the occasional user years. ( The torch head can literally be made for little of nothing by using internet plans, or Lincoln and Pwr-Kraft made the best commercial models although I think Lincoln recently discontinued their torch head but used ones are available on ebay all the time. Connection to the welder is easy. Stinger clamps to one lead and the ground clamp connects to the other lead).

NOTE: A TWIN CARBON ARC TORCH IS NOT THE SAME AS CARBON GOUGING (or an ArcAir gouging system) although the twin carbon arc torch head does utilize the same carbon type rods. You can NOT cut with a twin carbon arc torch - you can only heat things with it. In essence you strike an arc between the 2 carbon rods and then use the arc/flame that is created to do your heating work. The carbon rods burn very slowly, but you must wear your welding helmet. Having the welder in AC mode actually works best as the carbon rods consume themselves evenly in AC mode. DC mode will work too but just not as well - one rod will burn twice as fast as the other one in DC mode. Early cinema used twin carbon arc technology to power large movie projectors and early anti-aircraft search lights used the same technology to project searchlights into the sky.

 

[Shield Arc]

Like this?
I've never used one.

 

[rankrank1]

Like this?
I've never used one.

Yep - that one looks like the Lincoln one. (The Lincoln is considered the best of the twin carbon arc torches and sometimes will still sell for $100 on ebay. I have an old Montgomery Wards Pwr-Kraft torch head that I paid $20 for on Craigslist - not as good as the Lincoln version but it works. I was going to build a free one using old automotive jumper cables for leads and modifying the plans on the internet, but could not even fool with it for $20).

My guess is that in the hands of an expert like you that you would end up being one of the savey user's who could even improvise tig weld with it. I have heard that many 1940's and 1950's era welders succesfully used these things on aluminum welding long before better methods came along that were affordable to the hobbyist.

Using only a Lincoln AC-225 AC buzzbox for the power source: Even a hack like me can easily control the flame well enough to heat metal with it in order to bend it or straighten things (these things can burn up to 1000 degrees hotter than oxy/acet if needed). I do not need extreme heat very often and one of these is the perfect low cost way to get that extreme heat on those rare occasions when I need it. A $10 box of rods will last a very long time. No expensive bottles to lease, no expensive gas to buy, never have to worry about running out of gas on the weekend and everywhere is closed, nor the dangers of having to store gas tanks.

Not necessarily the perfect tool for everyone, but the perfect tool for my infrequent needs and if it is all you have you make it work.

 

[Shield Arc]

The one that looks like the "Lincoln one", I found that picture in one of my Lincoln books. Found the other picture on this website.

Arc Welding and Other Electric Arc Uses

 

[Runner]

I have one. It's primitive, but it does work. Not very precise for cutting.