Confusing Trailer Specs

[jdfire]

I was looking up the specs on a trailer I own because the data plate is faded. It is a 1997 Hudson Brothers Model HTLG16. According to Hudson (and my original paperwork) it has an empty weight of 2,170 lbs. and a "Maximum Payload: 7,000 lbs (with adequate hitch load)". GVWR is listed as 9,170 lbs. Interestingly though, the specifications state that it has two 3,500 lb Dexter axles.

How can you have a 9,170 GVWR with axles that only support 7,000 pounds?? Even putting 10-15% of the weight on the hitch would only get to a GVWR of 7,700-8,050 pounds.

I've been looking at new trailers lately and it always seems that the GVWR is closely related to the capacity of the axles, as would make sense. Am I missing something?

 

[brokenot]

The trailers we have at work have a decal affixed near the coupler that says this: (copied and pasted from the Redi-Haul site)

GVWR IS BASED ON TRANSFERRING 20% TO THE TOWING BEHICLE, ANYTHING LESS WILL REDUCE THE LOAD CAPACITY ACCORDINGLY.

Customers never believe it though. They unfailingly want the skid steers/trenchers/whatever positioned on the trailer deck so as to "balance" the load.

An ever more interesting spec than yours can be found in Hudson's catalog of trailers on page four. Check out trailer model VBCBI0516.

"Five ton model"

GCWR of 12,290 lbs.

Empty weight of 2,290 lbs.

Load capacity of 10,000 lbs. (with proper hitch load)

And yes, it also is built with two 3500 lb. axles.

http://www.hudsontrailers.com/docs/Hudson_Bros_cat.pdf

Here's to optimism....:thumbsup:

 

[Dmace]

How can you have a 9,170 GVWR with axles that only support 7,000 pounds?? Even putting 10-15% of the weight on the hitch would only get to a GVWR of 7,700-8,050 pounds.

I wonder what they consider "adequate hitch load". Even with 20% of the 7000lb load (1400 lbs) on the truck you are still looking at 5600lbs on the trailer plus the weight of the trailer (2170lbs), that means you have 7670lbs on two axles rated at a combined load of 7000lbs. Another way to look at it would be to take the total load of 7000lbs plus the trailer weight of 2170lbs for a total of 9170lbs. Put 20% of that load (1834lbs) on the truck and now the axles are supporting 7336lbs. Still too high for me, plus most 1/2 ton trucks can easily tow a loaded 7k trailer but won't come close to handling the 1400-1800lbs of tongue weight. Even with a weight distribution hitch, it would be tough.

Personally, even with "adequate hitch load" I don't think the GVWR should ever exceed the gross axle rating (GAWR). That's one manufacturer I won't be looking at for future trailer purchases...

 

[Baucom]

Your maximum hauling capacity is your GAWR + tongue wt., minus empty wt. Most mfg. calculate GVW as either GAWR or GAWR + 10% tongue wt. All Hudson is stating is that if your truck is up to the task, you can load it such that the tongue load offsets the trailer's wt.

It would be shortsighted to eliminate a mfg. simply because of the way they work their GVW numbers. Hudson builds excellent trailers, and while the way that they rate their GVW is unusual, it has no bearing on the construction of their trailers--which ultimately is what determines the trailer's durability and safety.

My 16' Hurst is rated for 7700 (2x 3500# axles + 10% tongue wt.), but I seriously doubt the frame is up to handling just 7K. OTOH, we've loaded Dad's 5T Hudson to ~11.5K several times with no ill effects. The simple fact is that the trailer construction is much more important than how the mfg. rates the GVW, and it is always up to the individual to not exceed the capacities of the trailer axles, hitch, and tow vehicle.

I wonder what they consider "adequate hitch load". Even with 20% of the 7000lb load (1400 lbs) on the truck you are still looking at 5600lbs on the trailer plus the weight of the trailer (2170lbs), that means you have 7670lbs on two axles rated at a combined load of 7000lbs. Another way to look at it would be to take the total load of 7000lbs plus the trailer weight of 2170lbs for a total of 9170lbs. Put 20% of that load (1834lbs) on the truck and now the axles are supporting 7336lbs. Still too high for me, plus most 1/2 ton trucks can easily tow a loaded 7k trailer but won't come close to handling the 1400-1800lbs of tongue weight. Even with a weight distribution hitch, it would be tough.

Personally, even with "adequate hitch load" I don't think the GVWR should ever exceed the gross axle rating (GAWR). That's one manufacturer I won't be looking at for future trailer purchases...

 

[Diamondpilot]

I can see giving a BP trailer 10% over the total capacity of the axles and a GN/5th Wheel getting 20% over the total capacity but I think Hudson is getting a little generous.

I agree with the others and would not go above the axles capacity and maybe in certain circumstances add the pin weight.

As for the high tongue loading the boat in my Avatar has 1800# of tongue weight. It was a little too much for my Diesel F-250 and my Diesel GMC 3500 SRW. My F-350 diesel handles it fine but still drops a good 4 inches but not the 8" or so the other trucks did. It sits on 3 6,000# axles. I could not see getting anywhere near this with 3,500# axles.

Chris

 

[Duffster]

In theory a trailer with the higher GVWR is a stronger trailer, no matter what it has for axles. IMO it makes more sense to rate a trailer for GAWR + trailer weight or at least GAWR + tongue load. Gives you more room to work with without buying a more expensive trailer.

A trailer with a GVWR = GAWR can't even be loaded to maximum GAWR because of the load on the tongue.

 

[Dmace]

Your maximum hauling capacity is your GAWR + tongue wt., minus empty wt. Most mfg. calculate GVW as either GAWR or GAWR + 10% tongue wt. All Hudson is stating is that if your truck is up to the task, you can load it such that the tongue load offsets the trailer's wt.

You said it, most manufactures use a typical 10% tongue weight. Hudson is using over 24% tongue weight! Show me a truck that can handle 24% tongue weight while towing at or near it's maximum tow capacity.
DiamondPilot's F350 is showing strain with under 2000lbs of tongue weight, can you imagine if he put 3600lbs of tongue weight on the truck while towing it's max of 15k lbs on a bumper pull! That is just shady sales tactics...

It would be shortsighted to eliminate a mfg. simply because of the way they work their GVW numbers. Hudson builds excellent trailers, and while the way that they rate their GVW is unusual, it has no bearing on the construction of their trailers--which ultimately is what determines the trailer's durability and safety.

I'm not eliminating them just because of their shady GVW numbers, it's also the fact that it looks like they put those same 3500lb axles on the 10k GVWR trailer as well. :thumbdown:

I'd say that maybe it's a mis-print but it clearly says that the "Pro-series HBC10 5-ton" model has different axles and when you look up that trailer it does indeed have a pair of 5,200lb Dexter axles on a trailer still rated at 10,000lb capacity and it's rated at 12,230lbs GVWR vs. the trailer with two 3,500lb axles rated at 12,290lbs GVWR. :confused2:

Lastly, that "excellent" trailer only uses 3" channel for the main frame vs most other 12k equipment trailers that use 5" or 6" channels.

 

[Soundguy]

I agree.. seems way more 'realistic to go gawr - trailer empty weight, + 10% tounge xfer.

soundguy

 

[FlaDon]

The trailers we have at work have a decal affixed near the coupler that says this: (copied and pasted from the Redi-Haul site)



Customers never believe it though. They unfailingly want the skid steers/trenchers/whatever positioned on the trailer deck so as to "balance" the load.

An ever more interesting spec than yours can be found in Hudson's catalog of trailers on page four. Check out trailer model VBCBI0516.

"Five ton model"

GCWR of 12,290 lbs. should be GVWR

Empty weight of 2,290 lbs.

Load capacity of 10,000 lbs. (with proper hitch load)

And yes, it also is built with two 3500 lb. axles.

http://www.hudsontrailers.com/docs/Hudson_Bros_cat.pdf

Here's to optimism....:thumbsup:

Red above is my note

A ticket and fine waiting to happen. The 2 5/16" coupler is rated nowhere near what would be needed to get the axles to 7K. In fact, you're looking at nearly 5K on the hitch to get to 12,290.

If you have a 10K GVWR rated trailer with a 10K/1000 coupler, you still are limited to 10K. You exceed the coupler's rating of 10K if you put a total of GAWR + Load + weight on hitch + empty weight of trailer greater than 10 K.

It would take a 50K/5K coupler to get there as the couplers are rated at 10% of the pulling rating.

 

[Soundguy]

I believe there are some awfully optomistic trailer manufacturers out there.

soundguy

 

[FlaDon]

I believe there are some awfully optomistic trailer manufacturers out there.

soundguy

Yep! Just about any that figure higher than the axle ratings are.

 

[Diamondpilot]

The coupler on my boat is rated at 18,000# and it uses a 2 5/16" couple. I have this matched with a 25,000# bar and hitch. I agree that most are not rated at that but I have seen some rated as high as 25,000#. Most are in the 12,000# range. The HD units are out there, you just have to look.

Does not matter really because the trailer is obviously optimistic on its rating to say the least. I would not put any more than 7,700# on it allowing for 10% on the tongue.

Chris

 

[hawkeye08]

I have seen 2 5/16 balls with 5000 lb rating and some with 30,000 lb rating, with many in between. My 20' trailer is rated for 10,000 lbs, but has two 5200 lb axles. there are additional licensing requirements for over 10,000 so mfg rates conservative in my case. My tires are also rated to handle the load. My empty weight is around 1900, so that gives me ~8000 lb capacity, more than enough for what I want to haul, even more capacity if you subtract the tongue weight.

just another data point, but basically what I am saying, there are many configurations, not all make sense.

 

[Duffster]

couplers are rated at 10% of the pulling rating.

Not all of them.

 

[Duffster]

Show me a truck that can handle 24% tongue weight while towing at or near it's maximum tow capacity.

Who said the tow vehicle would be at or near maximum tow capacity?

 

[Dmace]

Who said the tow vehicle would be at or near maximum tow capacity?

I was using that as a "worst case scenario".

 

[aczlan]

<snip>
I'd say that maybe it's a mis-print but it clearly says that the "Pro-series HBC10 5-ton" model has different axles and when you look up that trailer it does indeed have a pair of 5,200lb Dexter axles on a trailer still rated at 10,000lb capacity and it's rated at 12,230lbs GVWR vs. the trailer with two 3,500lb axles rated at 12,290lbs GVWR. :confused2:

Lastly, that "excellent" trailer only uses 3" channel for the main frame vs most other 12k equipment trailers that use 5" or 6" channels.

Did something change between you posted this and now? When I read it the trailer specs you linked, I come up with the following:

Axles: (2) 5,200 lb. E-Z lube Dexter w/ brakes
Main Frame: 3" x 5" x 5/16" Angle @ 8.2#
Crossmembers: 3" Channel @ 3.5#

Aaron Z

 

[TractorRob]

Did something change between you posted this and now? When I read it the trailer specs you linked, I come up with the following:


Aaron Z

Maybe Hudson Brothers is reading this thread

The PDF linked to earlier lists the VBCBI0516 as having "(2) 3,500 lb AL-KO ultrulube w/Brakes" axles, but the web page lists "(2) 5,200 lb Al-Ko ultrulube w/brakes."

 

[Skyco]

I believe there are some awfully optomistic trailer manufacturers out there.

soundguy

Optimistic? Naaahh....I think shady is a better word.

I've seen a lot of that in the trailer world, nonconforming lights as required by federal regs, tires that are under axle capacity and claimed trailer capacity etc.

I even have a 7k rated car trailer that had a 5k rated coupler on it. Called the manufacturer who stated "oh it is ok, don't worry". I asked what they would tell the jury if the coupler broke and the loose trailer killed a family. They later sent a guy to the dealer who cut off and welded new couplers on ALL their in stock trailers and mine. The same company also did not bother to put the legally required clearance lights on trailers over 80" wide...

Then my dump trailer (different manufacturer) rated at 14k gross was found to have tires totaling 12k on it...they sent me replacement wheels/tires, claimed it was an error on MY trailer. Well several months later I was at their factory and observed all the brand new 14k trailers going out with- yes- 12k worth of tires...

So I for one would be sceptical of ALL trailer specs without verifying the real deal...one just can't trust the manufacturer IMO.

 

[Dmace]

Did something change between you posted this and now? When I read it the trailer specs you linked, I come up with the following

Yeah, it looks like they changed the specs on the website for the VBCBI0516 trailer. I would still go under the trailer and physically check which axles it comes with.