haven't a clue need help

[hounder]

I have a case 831 diesel with a loader "unattached" I need to hook the loader to tractor. several problems here.
1.I'venever worked with any hydraulics
2. the origanal pump on tractor seems very weak"may or may not be"
3. I want ports to the rear and forward aswell to plumb other items
4 how do i select new control valve bank? what size quick fittings are most common? should i try to run off of the original pump,pto driven pump,or belt drive?
my goal is loader permanetly mounted with ability to run all attachments from operators seat. I also want to know the best way to control the grapple on bucket. the three point seems to origanally been designed to have power up and down however only "up" works barely. I also have a backhoe attachment for this tractor so need a" live" supply of pressure to plumb into as needed and would like to have a simple out in rear port for dual actining cylinder on another attachment. I know this is a long list of things but would much rather run everything right the first and last time then have to replace it multiple times getting it right. please bear with me as i can be dense when the occasion warrants

 

[AKKAMAAN]

1.I'venever worked with any hydraulics

That's why you are here at the TBN fourum

2. the origanal pump on tractor seems very weak"may or may not be"

In what way is the pump "weak"? Symptoms please!

3. I want ports to the rear and forward aswell to plumb other items

Thats called plumbing!

4 how do i select new control valve bank?

We need more info about present flow and pressure settings plus type of system...open center or closed center...

what size quick fittings are most common?

Need more info....see above

should i try to run off of the original pump,pto driven pump,or belt drive?

Need more info see above...belt drive is last option....

my goal is loader permanetly mounted with ability to run all attachments from operators seat. I also want to know the best way to control the grapple on bucket. the three point seems to origanally been designed to have power up and down however only "up" works barely. I also have a backhoe attachment for this tractor so need a" live" supply of pressure to plumb into as needed and would like to have a simple out in rear port for dual actining cylinder on another attachment. I know this is a long list of things but would much rather run everything right the first and last time then have to replace it multiple times getting it right. please bear with me as i can be dense when the occasion warrants

It is a long list....doi some home work and get back with more info.....:thumbsup:

 

[MarkV]

Welcome to the forum. Do I understand that the loader and backhoe you have were not originally for this tractor?

MarkV

 

[mmurphy]

TractorData.com J.I. Case 831 tractor information
Says open center.

 

[hounder]

as far as weak pump the pressure seems low on the three point lift cylinder. the three point may lift 200 lbs slowly however it has absolutely no down pressure more like a float. it is plumbed out the rear but these connectors build low slow pressure also regardless of rpms. The loader was attached to the tractor at one time but the guy i bought it from had removed it to rebuild the tractor motor. the issue there is the control valves where torn loose some how. the backhoe didn't come with the tractor and is one of the main reasons i'm concerned about flow. I don't really want to go to a pto pump unless required as i have some implements that are pto driven. I guess i am asking for those decision makers i should be looking for and then the steps needed to implement them

 

[magicheater]

as far as weak pump the pressure seems low on the three point lift cylinder. the three point may lift 200 lbs slowly however it has absolutely no down pressure more like a float.

3PT's don't normally have down pressure, however they do float.

 

[hounder]

3PT's don't normally have down pressure, however they do float.

I can't be absolutely sure about this right now but the tractor most likely has power don on the three point as it has worked off and on. I don't know if this is a aftermarket cylinder or not. it will put pressure down enough to lift the tractor and high center it if the arms are hooked to a box or other solid object. it isn't constantly available though some times it will push down and others it just settles. the manual has nothing in it . anyway this is how it happens if your pulling a gannon and you push the lever back it lowers it and begains to grade if you push forward it raises the gannon slowly if your on a flat hard surface and you push the lever back wards and hold it will slowly began to lift the rear tires till you no longer have traction. it typically leans to the right with the left tire a inch above ground then the cylinder is fully callapsed . I really don't know if thats putting power ie suction on the cylinder or if something else is occuring.

 

[MarkV]

Wow, this one is a bit confusing. I don't know the model but agree that very few tractors came with a down pressure on the 3pt hitch. Tractor data shows it as an AG tractor with a good amount of horsepower but only 1550 PSI on the hydraulics. My 21 hp tractor runs at 2500 PSI. Makes me wonder how well it will run a loader or a backhoe. I'll look forward to hearing what you find as a solution.

MarkV

 

[KWentling]

I have an 841 which is the gas version of you're tractor. Mine is a late model and does not have down pressure. The early models had an "Eagle Hitch" that I am not familiar with. It may have had an external cylinder which could be double acting. My three point cylinder is single acting and is internal. Mine has two sets of rear remotes. My loader is plugged into one set of them. I believe only 6 gpm is available at each remote. That is sufficient for my loader (Koyker) but wouldn't be for a backhoe. The hydraulics are open center and the stated pressure is correct. That's pretty much inline with what was available at the time. Some were better. I think you will need to go with a PTO pump for the backhoe, or it might be possible to run one off the front of the crankshaft. Not sure if there is room there or not. As far as possibly weak hydraulics, you need to confirm this with a pressure gage plugged into a rear remote. Could be a worn pump or the relief valve may need shimmed. Got any pictures of the back end?

Kim

 

[hounder]

no i don't have any pictures of the tractor yet. I guess my next question is are there any pto extensions available? sounds like a logical step to meif they are available. I do need more flow then that and pressure to run my backhoe and other eguipment but I also need the pto available for all that equipment. How does KWENTLING your loader work on the low flow pressure?? Is it a reasonable option to run the loader off of the tractor's excisting pump and everything else off a auxillary ?

 

[KWentling]

How does KWENTLING your loader work on the low flow pressure?? Is it a reasonable option to run the loader off of the tractor's excisting pump and everything else off a auxillary ?[/QUOTE]

Loader works just fine off the remotes. I can lift about 1800 lbs. at the bucket lip and speed is acceptable. The bucket curl is kind of weak but that is due to the loader design and the cylinders probably need to be resealed. I used it for big round and big square bales. The squares are about 1400 lbs. Tractor is waiting for it's new owner to come up with the cash as I have upgraded to a Case 1070 and Westendorf loader.
I would look at a crank driven pump if at all possible over trying to run a long PTO shaft adapter. A PTO drive shaft can exert a lot of side forces if pulling something like a pull type bush hog. Could also cause severe angles (shorter shaft) on mounted implements.
Yesterdays Tractors is a good place to ask questions about those older tractors. If yours is an Eagle Hitch they can tell you how they are supposed to operate. I believe the hydraulic valving is different on those as well.

Kim

 

[hounder]

does any one have any info on a crank driven pump or where to locate one or info on it?
I really appreciate the help I have spent days looking at mostly the wrong information and it gets old trying to figure something out with out good information. thanks again!!
are there any pitfalls i should be aware of to began with?
the loader is 5'6" wide and the back hoe attachment is deffinetly a bigger attachment I don't know what the reach is but the depth will be affected by the heigth of the tractor not much but some and from looking at it, it will probably be just as easy to attach it at operator deck height instead of below as I believe it was designed. one fault is there are no stabilizer arms on the hoe and it will have to have them.
what would the best place to attach the hydraulics. before the backhoe control valves or after?

If anyone would be willing to help walk me through this project that would be great!

 

[Willl]

We need pics of your setup,,,,

 

[Willl]

no stabilizer arms on the hoe

Is it home built ?

 

[mmurphy]

I do not think 1500 psi is the end of the backhoe dream here. A little low but it all depends what you are using it for. Those small cadplan style backhoes would not compare with, if properly running hydraulic unit that you have already.

 

[Willl]

1500 psi

I'm trying to keep up,,,,where did you get 1500 psi ?

 

[MarkV]

I'm trying to keep up,,,,where did you get 1500 psi ?

Will, tractor data list the tractor hydraulics as having 1550 PSI with 13.6 GPM flow.

MarkV

 

[KWentling]

Will, tractor data list the tractor hydraulics as having 1550 PSI with 13.6 GPM flow.

MarkV

That 13.6 GPM is total flow. Only half of that is available at one set of remotes. I'd have to look to see if the total flow could be intercepted before the valve bank. I'm pretty sure there are valving differences between my 830 and his though. I have no idea what his backhoe consists of, but if it is of a size that would I would envision to fit that tractor, 6 GPM would make for a very slow hoe. Thats about the flow my BX runs on. The pressure might be enough.

We need pictures so we know what he has.

Kim

 

[KWentling]

does any one have any info on a crank driven pump or where to locate one or info on it?

This is going to be a homemade setup. Don't think you will find a direct fit. I'm not even sure there is room to do this, but I'll try to get over to take a look at my 830. I'll also look to see if the pump output could be redirected to a power beyond valve and then back to the tractors valve bank. That would be the easiest solution if it's an option. We really need pictures of the back of the tractor and the hoe to know what you have.

I get most of my hydraulic components from Surplus Center.

Kim

 

[mmurphy]

If a hoe is added would he not want to change valving?



16.5 total flow, 13.6 valve flow, with 1 or 2 valves. Being it is open system I guess most of that goes to valve with possibly a priority valve for power steering if it came with it.