The "Plasma Plunge" - Miller vs Thermal Dynamics

[Spudland_Dave]

As far as comparing the Cutmaster 52 to the Hypertherm units....the Hypertherm Powermax1000 has more available power in killowatts and is conservatively rated....it will cut thicker than advertised. The 45 has less power than the 53, however if the user is interested in 1/2 and thinner cutting it may be a better choice with its lower price and smaller size. Hypertherm consumables are available at over 2000 welding distribution stores in N America, and the consumables are easily available.

Jim Colt

What I'm looking for is an O/A Torch Substitute.... 95% of cutting will be 1/2" or thinner...realistically 90% will be 1/4", 6%: 3/8", 2% 1/2" and the last 2% stuff thicker then 1/2", with the occasion to be able to cut 1"...doenst need to be pretty, but it needs to cut it.... Would you say a Powermax 45 could do that? Thats where I have a hard time making a $1,500 gamble... I've seen the TD-52 cut 1" with ease... I've not seen a Powermax. If I gamble away $1,500 bucks I'd at least want free booze and scantily clad women around....

Just because you have 2000 welding dealers on your dealer list, doesnt mean they all stock the parts & consumables. Sure they can get em, but I'd rather not wait... Thats another point of contention for me... with TD, they all use the same consumables..so you KNOW the consumables are in stock, but with Hyperthem not being big around here... You honestly think they'll stock consumables for a "home owner" machine like the PowerMax 45?

Safe to say the shopping part for me is over... I will eventually own a Cutmaster 52, only thing I'm shopping for now is the best price & deal.

 

[jimcolt]

Maine oxy, with multiple locations in Maine has handled Hypertherm product for years. Sounds like you are sold on the T-D units....nothing wrong with them. Didn't mean to get you worked up!

Hypertherm ships same day to distributors....so if they do not have it in stock and you call before 3PM, they will have the parts next day. Attached is severance shot with a Powermax45 cutting 1-1/4" thick steel (1/2" and 3/4" stacked) I have severed 1-5/8" with it....pretty slow, but the Power supply has the capability to produce some high arc voltage. Not bad for 45 amps.

Torch technology plays a big part of the cut process. Some manufcaturers like to stay with their 10 year old torch technology (less research and development investment!) Hypertherm chooses to continuously improve theirs. If you are ever in the Hanover NH area, give me a call....I'd be happy to tour you through Hypertherm's plants (all 8 of them) to show you why our plasma systems are different.

Some specification comparisons:

T-D Cutmaster 52....43 lbs, duty cycle 40% @60 amps, rated Kw 6.2 @103 volts

Hypertherm Powermax45...37lbs (with torch), duty cycle 50% @ 45 amps, rated kW 6.0 @ 132 volts.

So, similar kW output, Hypertherm has higher output voltage rating (longer arc promotes better drop cuts), Hypertherm is a little lighter. Check out the pic for a 1-1/4" drop cut.

Jim Colt

 

[Spudland_Dave]

Maine oxy, with multiple locations in Maine has handled Hypertherm product for years. Sounds like you are sold on the T-D units....nothing wrong with them. Didn't mean to get you worked up!

Hypertherm ships same day to distributors....so if they do not have it in stock and you call before 3PM, they will have the parts next day. Attached is severance shot with a Powermax45 cutting 1-1/4" thick steel (1/2" and 3/4" stacked) I have severed 1-5/8" with it....pretty slow, but the Power supply has the capability to produce some high arc voltage. Not bad for 45 amps.

Torch technology plays a big part of the cut process. Some manufcaturers like to stay with their 10 year old torch technology (less research and development investment!) Hypertherm chooses to continuously improve theirs. If you are ever in the Hanover NH area, give me a call....I'd be happy to tour you through Hypertherm's plants (all 8 of them) to show you why our plasma systems are different.

Jim Colt

Dont mean to sound "worked up" ...just wanted to explain my thought process, sometimes I lay things out a little too blunty....Honestly, I can say that you are really making me think about a Hyperthem....which is a good thing. I really may take you up on that offer of a shop tour, probably wont be anytime soon because as I mentioned previously, I'd like to build my shop first. I do want to say thank you for all your input into this thread and taking the time to post it.

Stacking Steel...Does it make any difference? What I'm getting at is if I had 2 3/8" plates I wanted to make exactly the same, does it act like a 3/4" piece of steel or does the tiny air-gap inbetween make a difference?

You bring up another question I have. You mention torch design... TD Dealer said to me the single biggest difference between quality machines is the torch design, with TD Being the best torch (obviously they are biased, I realize that)...but I spoke with a local shop which has a Miller Spectrum 2050 they bought and were dissapointed with since day 1... They had a TD Torch setup installed at the dealers insistance and they are in love....

I know you're gonna natually have some Bias as well, but what makes your Hypertherm torch better? Is is a personal feel type thing?

From a layman's point of view, TD only has to spend R&D Dollars on one torch...

 

[jimcolt]

Stacking is a little tougher....better if stacked tightly...note the clamp!

I have always liked T-D's machines, and their people have a right to be biased...just as I do. I have been with Hypertherm for 32 + years. The thing I don't like about T-D, and I grew up in W. Lebanon, NH, is that they are slowly farming out their jobs. Torches are now in Mexico, mechanized power supplies in Asia, and they are now offering a Chinese built 35 amp machine, with a Mexican 1 torch! My wife and I own a business right next to T-D's plant.....and there are not many cars in the parking lot anymore!

Hypertherm has 85 engineers, 15 with pHd's that are involved with process (torch, consumables, gas flow) design. There currently are 75 patents hanging on the wall. Every power supply is designed with the torch it will be sold with....not because we like to change things, but when we learn how to make consumables last longer, or to cut better, or to cut faster....we insist on putting that technology in a new system. Sometimes you cannot keep patching the older designs.

The Powermax1000, 1250 and 1650 had a torch innovation called coaxial assist jet technology.....which allowed us to cut thicker materials at lower amperage levels, without sacrificing nozzle life. The Powermax45 technology uses a newer nozzle flow invention called conical flow.....which takes the coaxial flow a step further with even better life and better cut quality. I have a 4 x 4 PlasmaCam machine in my home shop, I used to use the Powermax1000 on it....I now use the 45 on it for materials up to 5/8", better consumable life and squarer edges.

We do spend a lot on R&D. We also care about our employees. Our jobs remain in NH!

I'm serious about a plant tour. I don't know where in Maine you are, but contact me at jim.colt@hypertherm.com if you ever get over this way!

Jim

 

[Spudland_Dave]

We do spend a lot on R&D. We also care about our employees. Our jobs remain in NH!

I'm a put your money where your mouth is guy and that single statement probably did more to sell me a Hypertherm then all the tech talk containted in this thread..

I'm serious about a plant tour. I don't know where in Maine you are, but contact me at jim.colt@hypertherm.com if you ever get over this way!

Jim

I'm in the Oxford Hills area, not far from NH at all...wife and I used to make our way over to N. Conway quite a bit a while back...just have been too busy around the house lately. With the baby coming in 2 months, needless to say I dont think I'll have time to even unbox a new plasma let alone drive over to see you! LOL!

Ok, I need an honest answer from you...I dont want to be undersold, nor do I want to be oversold....what machine would you reccomend for me if I were a family member..feel free to pass on the family discount ...

Home Shop guy...high end home shop guy if you want to classify me... general ag fab work, I can see alot of 1/4" and 3/8" cutting as thats what I find I work alot with...but like i mentioned, I want to do away with O/A torch completely...so there will be times I want/need to cut some 1" stock, and times I'll be wanting to cut some 10 ga. I want the ability to cut the thick stuff but wont be making a living doing it...if that makes sense.

 

[jimcolt]

The Powermax 45 from Hypertherm is more than adequate for what you need. Unfortunately we only sell through our distributors, but I can likely get you a couple of accessorries thrown in after you get your unit!

I have to buy my plasma systems and consumables!

Jim

 

[lostcause]

it sounds like what spudland_dave is looking for is pretty much exactly what i'm looking for as far as cutting capabilities. most everything is under 1/2", but a few things will get up to 1". i think i'm pretty well sold on the hypertherm 45 but sadly it's all on what i've done for research. i don't have any friends with plasma cutters, and the only ones i have had any experience with were at large fab shops, so they aren't what i'm looking for anyways.

now i'm left with finding the price i'm happy with. around here we have maineoxy and advantage gases. my current bottles are through advantage because they have a cylinder depot 5 minutes from my house. i did take a drive to the closest maineoxy (rockland) last week and talked with the guy there about the hypertherm. the guy there was great. easy to work with, seemed to know his stuff fairly well & didn't give me any bs - i've got a really good built-in detector for bs too. only problem was that the price was considerably higher than what the online welding dealers will sell for. i want to buy locally if possible, but right now that's a lot to swallow.

i graduated from vermont tech 20 years ago this month, so i have made my share of trips through the west lebanon area on the way from maine to vermont. if i ever go back up through the area, i'll probably try to get in on one of those tours myself. i'm still fascinated by seeing how anything is made. my hat is off to jimcolt for keeping us educated on these forums, and also on the cnczone forums. i've been browsing there to fine tune the details on what i want to build for a table, and in both places he's been keeping people well informed.

 

[jimcolt]

C'mon over.....if nothing else you can come to my home shop.....theres a PlasmaCam 4 x 4 cutting machine, a Powermax30, Powermax45 and a Powermax1000, a Kubota 4310, and a Kubota RTV900......Hobart welders, 5 horses (those are the wifes toys).

Jim

 

[Jim in ICT]

I know a guy that used to be a factory representative for TD and left to start a cutting machine business, guess whose plasma power source he promotes - Hypertherm! Nothing wrong with TD, but in my opinion (and you know what they say about opinions), Hypertherm's the way to go.

When the new generation machines came out, I compared the old 380 model to the new 30,which replaced it. The velocity of the air flowing through the torch head of the 30 was noticeably higher and the cut was quite a bit better. I changed positions within the company before the 45 came out and haven't had a chance to demo it.

Jim, doesn't Hypertherm test their power sources at higher operating temperatures than the other majors?

 

[jimcolt]

Hypertherm uses 104 degrees F as the benchamark temperature for determining duty cycle ratings.....I believe that T-D uses that temp as well for most of their products. Most companies talk about duty cycles but don't provide the necessary information to back up the duty cycle claims. One of the Chinese import machines claims a duty cycle in the 60% range at full output amperage.....in tests under the same conditions in our labs shows that the units duty cycle was closer to 15%!

To determine output duty cycle....you need to set an ambient air temperature (104 degrees for Hypertherm) and an output current and voltage (amps x volts = watts). In the same line with the advertised duty cycle specifications from a manufacturer all of this data should be provided or duty cycle means nothing!

Jim

 

[plastikosmd]

went through the same search a few months ago. It came down to hypertherm or TD. They were much more cutter for the money when looking at miller. I went with the hypertherm after trying both. Amazing machine and am very happy.

 

[swines]

Have you looked at Hypertherm, they invented the plasma cutting technology and thats all they make and there priced about the same. I have a Hypertherm 30 and it cuts 1/4 plate steel great, 3/8 okay 1/2" max, and it is about the size of a battery boosth box.

No - Esab (then Linde) invented plasma cutting technology in 1955. Hypertherm was started in 1968 and marketed their first plasma cutter in 1969. They (Linde) also invented the TIG (HeliArc) process. If you want a genuine HeliArc - you buy an Esab HeliArc.

 

[jimcolt]

It was Union Carbide that held the first patent on the plasma cutting process.....

Jim Colt Hypertherm

 

[Spudland_Dave]

No - Esab (then Linde) invented plasma cutting technology in 1955. Hypertherm was started in 1968 and marketed their first plasma cutter in 1969. They (Linde) also invented the TIG (HeliArc) process. If you want a genuine HeliArc - you buy an Esab HeliArc.

What does it matter who invented it? Kubota or Deere didnt invent tractors yet the overwhelming majority of people consider those 2 brands to be top shelf.

 

[yomax4]

I see from page 7 that the Mud Slinging has started. I know TD uses Sanrex Inverters from Japan as does Miller and Others. Does Hypertherm Make their own Inverters? How many of the the Hypertherm componets are built on site and how many are sourced elsewhere? No-one in a True Manufacturer anymore. I saw one post that said a TD guy quit and went to a competitive company. If you quit and went to a competitor will you still push Hypertherm. All I can say that when you buy a Plasma Cutter, Get the Largest and Newest you can afford. If it turns out to be a Miller, Hypertherm or ESAB, You can always get a little more Snort out of it by Retro Fitting it with a TD 1 Torch. It's all the craze these days.:thumbsup:

 

[jimcolt]

No mud slinging from me. Sanrex makes a nice product. I was just stating that T-D made their US workforce smaller by importing plasma power supplies from other countries.

And, all of the Hypertherm plasma systems today (Inverter and chopper power supplies) are produced in Hanover NH USA. Our boards, torches, and all components are built in the U.S. There are (of course) components on circuit boards that are built all over the world....some simply are not available from U.S. companies. Be glad to give you a tour of our facilities in NH! Where you can see every product being built.

You are correct on choosing a plasma....buy up as far as power goes, you won't regret it. Worse thing you could do to a Hypertherm is put a 10 year old 1 torch on it! That is a great torch for many systems, but doesn't match Hypertherm's torch technology in terms of cut performance and consumable life. Hypertherm chooses to not make a "one size fits all" torch, rather the torches are designed for the power levels and power supplies they will be used with.

Jim

 

[yomax4]

Couple of Interesting things. Miller Seems Ok to use a 10 Year Old Hypertherm ICE Torch on their Plasmas and I sure do see a lot of 650 - 1250 Hypertherms sporting TD 1 Torches in the Midwest. Unsure why but the Distributors like to do the 1 Torch Retro Fits.

 

[jimcolt]

The distributors that do the retrofits to the 1 torch are T-D distributors. They then can sell consumables to the system with the 1 torch installed. Often the torch is offered at a low price, the distributor makes money in the long run selling consumables. Can't blame the customer for buying a bargain torch, however they pay more for it over time!

Hypertherm produces torches for Miller.....they are not the same torches found on the Hypertherm units.

Jim

 

[lostcause]

hey jim, kind of an aside from the main purpose of the thread, but does hypertherm have any drawing files of the handheld and machine torches for the 45 unit that can be disclosed? i'm still laying out all the details of my cnc table, and i like to be complete with the drawings so i can see how everything looks when complete. getting the pieces in there with the exact scale lets me see any issues i might have ahead of time. dxf would be ideal, but i'm not fussy. i'll take anything i can get

 

[jimcolt]

The only drawings are in the Powermax45 manual (can be downloaded from Hypertherm | Plasma Cutters | Plasma Cutting Equipment | Metal Cutting Equipment, use the tab called downloads library) they are simple lin drawings. The drawing for the machine torch shows dimensions for mounting, the drawing for the hand torch is simply an exploded view for repairs or service. Usually these drawings are adequate to prepare for installing the torch.

Jim