2011 Superduty Specs Announced

[Duffster]

If that F-350 can tow 21,600 lbs then it must have a GCWR of at least 28k-34k lbs, unless they limit it to 26,000lbs exactly and that truck weighs less then 4,400lbs which I highly doubt (my 1/2 ton weighs 5,200lbs). If that truck has a GCWR of 26,001 lbs or more then you need a CDL license to drive it, even empty.

Section 259:12-e Commercial Motor Vehicle.

Ford is just playing the numbers game as usual knowing most people don't have a clue about GCWR's and GVWR's and all they see is a tow capacity higher then another truck so it must be better.

The Ford truck's that are rated at 26k GCWR or less so you do not need a CDL are only rated to tow 18k lbs which is around the same as the others. In order to get that higher 21k tow capacity you have to move up to a truck with a 4.30 rear end and a GCWR of 33k lbs which is way over CDL. So for this new F-350 to have a tow capacity of 21,600lbs, I guarantee it will have a GCWR of over 26k. This is for the 2010 models but I doubt much has changed for the 2011's.

2010 Ford Super Duty Towing Capacity | The Official Site of the 2010 Ford Super Duty | FordVehicles.com

Did you look at the definition of "GCWR"?

 

[Dmace]

Did you look at the definition of "GCWR"?

Are you asking these questions because you don't know? I believe I have explained it pretty well, if you still don't get it then look it up yourself.

You keep posting these questions like I am saying something wrong, well if you think I am then explain yourself. Please enlighten us...

 

[Diamondpilot]

Lets be honest. Most people towing that type of weight will be legal. The is a exemption for farming, recreational vehicles, ect. That covers most. If you are using it to haul equipment you are more than like likely a farmer which is exempt or you are commercial and have all the DOT regs covered so your argument Dmace does not hold water.

At the end of the day it going to be an non factor. The engine is the only unknown. Time will tell on that. The chassis, interior, options, toughness, looks, tranny, ect is proven time and time again. Ford will do good no matter what with this new truck if anyone has any money to buy one.

Chris

 

[Duffster]

Are you asking these questions because you don't know? I believe I have explained it pretty well, if you still don't get it then look it up yourself.

You keep posting these questions like I am saying something wrong, well if you think I am then explain yourself. Please enlighten us...

I know, I was wondering if you do.

What class of license would you need to drive that empty F350?

 

[LD1]

The problem with comparison specs is that they can be made to say whatever you want. IMO this is not a true apples to apples comparison.

Take for example the following specs on that link

................Ram...........Ford............Chevy
Payload......5110..........6520..........6335
Towing......18500..........24400.........20000
GVWR.........12200..........13050...........13000
Axle rating F...5500........6000...............6000
Rear Axle.......9350.........9000...............9350

For the Ford, that payload spec is from a std cab GAS motor, and the Tow spec is from a F450 Diesel.

The payload specs are skewed in favor of the chevy and ford anyway because they used the spec with the 400lb lighter gas motor but not for the RAM. I'm not sure if 2011 is different but in 2010 ford rated the diesels with a 400lb less payload with the diesel.

It is also kinda ironic that the ford has the highest payload yet the lowest rated rear axle??

I'm not sure what the Actual specs of the 2011 F-350 are, but if you read the artical, The F-450 has lowered the GVWR by almost 1500lbs down to 13050 and that lowered the payload to under 5000lbs. So if I understand their # game correctally, The F-350 can haul almost a ton more than the F450, but tow 3000lbs less???

 

[Dmace]

I know, I was wondering if you do.

What class of license would you need to drive that empty F350?

If the GCWR is 26,001 lbs or more then you need at least a CDL class B license. And in order for that "class leading" truck to have a 21k+ tow capacity, the GCWR will be 33K or more.

Once again, feel free to enlighten us with your infinite knowledge on this subject rather then asking me questions...

 

[Duffster]

If the GCWR is 26,001 lbs or more then you need at least a CDL class B license. And in order for that "class leading" truck to have a 21k+ tow capacity, the GCWR will be 33K or more.

Once again, feel free to enlighten us with your infinite knowledge on this subject rather then asking me questions...

This is hilarious.:laughing:

You and I both know that a CDL isn't required to drive a F350 unless you are pulling enough trailer to make it a CMV. (or hauling Hazmat or enough passengers)

 

[JB4310]

if anyone has any money to buy one.
Chris

LOL! I wanted to say the exact same thing, but didn't want to sound like a complainer, the market for those trucks by contractors like me is drying up.

I know different locals go through the economic cycles at different times, but around here it's pretty bad.


As far as the farm exemption goes, I heard anything that turns a profit is considered commercial, even heard of the extreme where if you won a prize at a farm show that could be considered a financial gain??

JB.

 

[thompsjk]

If that F-350 can tow 21,600 lbs then it must have a GCWR of at least 28k-34k lbs, unless they limit it to 26,000lbs exactly and that truck weighs less then 4,400lbs which I highly doubt (my 1/2 ton weighs 5,200lbs). If that truck has a GCWR of 26,001 lbs or more then you need a CDL license to drive it, even empty.

Section 259:12-e Commercial Motor Vehicle.

Ford is just playing the numbers game as usual knowing most people don't have a clue about GCWR's and GVWR's and all they see is a tow capacity higher then another truck so it must be better.

The Ford truck's that are rated at 26k GCWR or less so you do not need a CDL are only rated to tow 18k lbs which is around the same as the others. In order to get that higher 21k tow capacity you have to move up to a truck with a 4.30 rear end and a GCWR of 33k lbs which is way over CDL. So for this new F-350 to have a tow capacity of 21,600lbs, I guarantee it will have a GCWR of over 26k. This is for the 2010 models but I doubt much has changed for the 2011's.

2010 Ford Super Duty Towing Capacity | The Official Site of the 2010 Ford Super Duty | FordVehicles.com

Commercial motor vehicle'' shall mean a motor vehicle or a combination of motor vehicles, used in commerce, designed or used to transport passengers or property if:


Webster's
Commerce : Trade on a large scale.

So I don't see any thing for private use.

 

[Dmace]

You and I both know that a CDL isn't required to drive a F350 unless you are pulling enough trailer to make it a CMV. (or hauling Hazmat or enough passengers)

Obviously you don't know that a CDL is required for ANY vehicle with a GCWR of 26,001lbs or more whether it's empty or loaded to it's max. If the vehicle is capable of carrying a combined load over 26,000lbs it still requires a CDL even if it's total load is less. How about a box truck that is rated at 30,000lbs GCWR? There is no trailer and it's empty weight is well under 26,000lbs but you still need a CDL to drive it. There has been plenty of discussion on this and many people have been fined not knowing the law. Ask your local highway patrol, I did and that's how I know.

Commercial motor vehicle'' shall mean a motor vehicle or a combination of motor vehicles, used in commerce, designed or used to transport passengers or property if:

This is where the wording gets tricky, they can and will fine you if you are over the limit and don't have a CDL even if you are not doing it for commerce. Once again, ask your local Highway Patrol officer. I did when I started hauling around my tractor and he said even if I was just bringing it to the dealer, I would have to follow the max GCWR of 26,000lbs without a CDL.

 

[77bronco]

Seems to be some confusion over GVWR and GCWR. This definition on who needs a CDL is from the Idaho DMV website, which I think is pretty much standard definition used nation wide now.


Idaho's Commercial Driver's License (CDL) Program is designed to improve safety on our highways while meeting federal requirements for testing and licensing of all commercial drivers. You must have a CDL to operate any of the following commercial vehicles:

1. Combination vehicle with a gross combination weight rating (GCWR) of 26,001 or more pounds, provided that the gross vehicle weight rating (GVWR) of the towed unit is greater than 10,000 pounds,

2. Single vehicle with a gross vehicle weight rating of 26,001 or more pounds,

3. Vehicle designed to transport 16 or more persons (including the driver),

4. Any size vehicle that requires hazardous material placards.

Gross vehicle weight rating (GVWR) is the manufacturer's assigned weight rating for the vehicle (truck, bus, or trailer), not the vehicle's registered weight. On trucks, the GVWR is usually found on a metal identification plate inside the driver's door. On trailers, it may be found anywhere but is commonly found on the front of the trailer on the driver's side. For Idaho, in the absence of a GVWR, the actual weight of the vehicle plus it's heaviest load is considered to be the GVWR. Other states may use other definitions.

Gross combined weight rating (GCWR), is figured by adding the GVWR of each unit of a combination vehicle.

So, according to this the F-350 being talked about doesn't fall into the CDL catagory unless you are towing a trailer that has a rating of about 13k or more. (Given a 13k GVWR for the F-350)
Then there is the gray area of whether or not you are doing this for compensation or just hauling your own stuff around.
I imagine that if you ask 10 different cops, you'll get 10 different answers. YMMV

 

[Duffster]

Obviously you don't know that a CDL is required for ANY vehicle with a GCWR of 26,001lbs or more whether it's empty or loaded to it's max. If the vehicle is capable of carrying a combined load over 26,000lbs it still requires a CDL even if it's total load is less. How about a box truck that is rated at 30,000lbs GCWR? There is no trailer and it's empty weight is well under 26,000lbs but you still need a CDL to drive it. There has been plenty of discussion on this and many people have been fined not knowing the law. Ask your local highway patrol, I did and that's how I know.

Obviously

Go out and get yourself a new F350 and head straight down to the DMV office and tell them you are there to get a CDL with it and see how long it takes for them to quit laughing. :laughing:

Do yourself a favor and look up the definition of GCWR.

 

[Duffster]

Seems to be some confusion over GVWR and GCWR. This definition on who needs a CDL is from the Idaho DMV website, which I think is pretty much standard definition used nation wide now.


Idaho's Commercial Driver's License (CDL) Program is designed to improve safety on our highways while meeting federal requirements for testing and licensing of all commercial drivers. You must have a CDL to operate any of the following commercial vehicles:

1. Combination vehicle with a gross combination weight rating (GCWR) of 26,001 or more pounds, provided that the gross vehicle weight rating (GVWR) of the towed unit is greater than 10,000 pounds,

2. Single vehicle with a gross vehicle weight rating of 26,001 or more pounds,

3. Vehicle designed to transport 16 or more persons (including the driver),

4. Any size vehicle that requires hazardous material placards.

Gross vehicle weight rating (GVWR) is the manufacturer's assigned weight rating for the vehicle (truck, bus, or trailer), not the vehicle's registered weight. On trucks, the GVWR is usually found on a metal identification plate inside the driver's door. On trailers, it may be found anywhere but is commonly found on the front of the trailer on the driver's side. For Idaho, in the absence of a GVWR, the actual weight of the vehicle plus it's heaviest load is considered to be the GVWR. Other states may use other definitions.

Gross combined weight rating (GCWR), is figured by adding the GVWR of each unit of a combination vehicle.

So, according to this the F-350 being talked about doesn't fall into the CDL catagory unless you are towing a trailer that has a rating of about 13k or more. (Given a 13k GVWR for the F-350)
Then there is the gray area of whether or not you are doing this for compensation or just hauling your own stuff around.
I imagine that if you ask 10 different cops, you'll get 10 different answers. YMMV

That is spot on. :thumbsup:

 

[JB4310]

Seems to be some confusion over GVWR and GCWR. This definition on who needs a CDL is from the Idaho DMV website, which I think is pretty much standard definition used nation wide now.


Idaho's Commercial Driver's License (CDL) Program is designed to improve safety on our highways while meeting federal requirements for testing and licensing of all commercial drivers. You must have a CDL to operate any of the following commercial vehicles:

1. Combination vehicle with a gross combination weight rating (GCWR) of 26,001 or more pounds, provided that the gross vehicle weight rating (GVWR) of the towed unit is greater than 10,000 pounds,

2. Single vehicle with a gross vehicle weight rating of 26,001 or more pounds,

3. Vehicle designed to transport 16 or more persons (including the driver),

4. Any size vehicle that requires hazardous material placards.

Gross vehicle weight rating (GVWR) is the manufacturer's assigned weight rating for the vehicle (truck, bus, or trailer), not the vehicle's registered weight. On trucks, the GVWR is usually found on a metal identification plate inside the driver's door. On trailers, it may be found anywhere but is commonly found on the front of the trailer on the driver's side. For Idaho, in the absence of a GVWR, the actual weight of the vehicle plus it's heaviest load is considered to be the GVWR. Other states may use other definitions.

Gross combined weight rating (GCWR), is figured by adding the GVWR of each unit of a combination vehicle.

So, according to this the F-350 being talked about doesn't fall into the CDL catagory unless you are towing a trailer that has a rating of about 13k or more. (Given a 13k GVWR for the F-350)
Then there is the gray area of whether or not you are doing this for compensation or just hauling your own stuff around.
I imagine that if you ask 10 different cops, you'll get 10 different answers. YMMV

The only gray area is that compensation area, the weight numbers seem pretty clear.


http://media.ford.com/images/10031/2011_SD_Specs.pdf

Look at page 3 of these specs, specifically the 2nd column in the max towing boxes, that lists GCWR, many of the 350's with diesel and lower gear ratios are over 26,000. So according to those Idaho DMV numbers you would be limited to a trailer with a max 10,000 pounds gvw before CDL would be required.

According to Idaho's laws, which I do believe represent the standard DOT rules.
You don't add the gvw of the truck and the gvw of the trailer to determine cdl requirements (to stay under 26000) unless the trucks GCWR is lower than 26000.

That +26K GCWR is the buzz killer, it's a detriment instead of a benefit.
A landscape contractor would be able to tow a heavier trailer with a gas F-250 than a diesel f-350, 450 or even 550!

All these big huge towing numbers seem kinda worthless since because of the 26K+ GCWR, you are limited to a 10K toy hauler, with out CDL and all the fun that goes along with that.

This is the way I understand it, am I missing something? very possible

I know this applies to those conducting some form of commerce, but I'm pretty sure the majority of buyers of these trucks are involved in some type of commerce/compensation.

JB.

 

[Diamondpilot]

The only gray area is that compensation area, the weight numbers seem pretty clear.


http://media.ford.com/images/10031/2011_SD_Specs.pdf

Look at page 3 of these specs, specifically the 2nd column in the max towing boxes, that lists GCWR, many of the 350's with diesel and lower gear ratios are over 26,000. So according to those Idaho DMV numbers you would be limited to a trailer with a max 10,000 pounds gvw before CDL would be required.

According to Idaho's laws, which I do believe represent the standard DOT rules.
You don't add the gvw of the truck and the gvw of the trailer to determine cdl requirements unless the trucks GCWR is lower than 26000.

That 26K GCWR is the buzz killer, it's a detriment instead of a benefit.
A landscape contractor would be able to tow a heavier trailer with a gas F-250 than a diesel f-350, 450 or even 550!

All these big huge towing numbers seem kinda worthless since because of the 26K+ GCWR, you are limited to a 10K toy hauler, with out CDL and all the fun that goes along with that.

This is the way I understand it, am I missing something? very possible

I know this applies to those conducting some form of commerce, but I'm pretty sure the majority of buyers of these trucks are involved in some type of commerce.

JB.

Everything you are saying is true, to a point. There are exemptions for farmers, Recreational Vehicles, and RV's. In my area I know 17 year old kids driving 18 wheelers around without any CDL. The law states if its for farm use and you are a employee of that farm you can travel upto 150 miles. As for RV's and such you have no limit.

If a contractor is towing that type of weight, yes he will need a CDL but that is just part of doing business. Its not a big deal.

The real difference is GCWR and GVWR. There is a difference.

Chris

 

[Duffster]

Look at page 3 of these specs, specifically the 2nd column in the max towing boxes, that lists GCWR, many of the 350's with diesel and lower gear ratios are over 26,000. So according to those Idaho DMV numbers you would be limited to a trailer with a max 10,000 pounds gvw before CDL would be required.

I don't see how you figure that.

According to Idaho's laws, which I do believe represent the standard DOT rules.
You don't add the gvw of the truck and the gvw of the trailer to determine cdl requirements (to stay under 26000) unless the trucks GCWR is lower than 26000.

GCWR for CDL purposes has alway been GVWR+GVWR.

That 26K GCWR is the buzz killer, it's a detriment instead of a benefit.
A landscape contractor would be able to tow a heavier trailer with a gas F-250 than a diesel f-350, 450 or even 550!

This is the way it has always been. To be under CDL a F550 is limited to a 10k or less, a F350 can pull ~13k and a F250 can pull ~16k.

All these big huge towing numbers seem kinda worthless since because of the 26K+ GCWR, you are limited to a 10K toy hauler, with out CDL and all the fun that goes along with that.

This is the way I understand it, am I missing something? very possible

I know this applies to those conducting some form of commerce, but I'm pretty sure the majority of buyers of these trucks are involved in some type of commerce.

JB.

Why would one be limited to 10k trailer?

 

[JB4310]

Duffster,
I liked Diamondpilots response better than yours, "Everything you are saying is true, to a point"

I'm kinda wingin it here, trying to draw conclusions from what I'm reading both from DOT rules and from manufacturers own specs.

I would like to respond to your questions in the same Quote question/answer format.

Is there an easy way to do that, I know it could be done with a long work around? I'm pretty sure I could defend those statements with what's already been posted.

JB.

 

[77bronco]

I didn't list the exemptions to a CDL, in order to keep my post short, but here goes.....

Exemptions from CDL Requirements
Even if your vehicle is a commercial vehicle according to the definition above, you may qualify for one of the CDL exemptions. There are four categories of CDL exemptions.

Recreational vehicle exemption - applies to drivers of vehicles used exclusively to transport personal possessions or family members for nonbusiness or recreational purposes.

Military vehicle exemption - applies to military vehicle operators who are considered active-duty military personnel and to civilians who are required to wear uniforms and are subject to the Code of Military Justice.

Emergency vehicle exemption - applies to drivers of fire fighting or other emergency equipment used in response to emergencies involving the preservation of life or property.

Farm vehicle exemption - applies to drivers of farm vehicles, including family members and farm hands, under certain conditions only. The farm exemption applies to drivers of farm vehicles which are:

1. Controlled and operated by the farmer,

2. Used to transport agricultural products, supplies, and machinery to or from a farm,

3. Not used in common or contract carrier operations, and

4. Not driven more than 150 miles ("as the crow flies") from the farm.

The farm exemption is intended for small farm-to-market operations only. It does not extend beyond the boundaries of Idaho with exception of Wyoming, Oregon, and Montana. It does not include farmers who are transporting other farmers' products if they are receiving any compensation for the services.

The RV exemption is what allowed me to pull my 21k GVWR fifth wheel with a IH 4400 that has a 25,999 GVWR. Idaho doesn't include the RV in the GCWR. I also found out there isn't a provision for an air brake endorsement on a non-CDL license.(in Idaho)

 

[Duffster]

Duffster,
I liked Diamondpilots response better than yours, "Everything you are saying is true, to a point"

I'm kinda wingin it here, trying to draw conclusions from what I'm reading both from DOT rules and from manufacturers own specs.

I would like to respond to your questions in the same Quote question/answer format.

Is there an easy way to do that, I know it could be done with a long work around? I'm pretty sure I could defend those statements with what's already been posted.

JB.

Just quote the whole post and copy/paste the [/QUOTE] tags where you want them.

 

[sld]

Hmmm, a huge gas guzzling 6.2 liter V8 producing 385HP at 5,500rpms and 405lb-ft. at 4,500rpms vs the 8 year proven 5.7 liter HEMI producing 390HP at 5,500 rpms and 407lb-ft of torque at just 3,900rpms.

So how is this at "the head of the pack"? Let me guess, now it's cool for an engine to need high rpms to produce power since the Ford does. Gee, it must be a race car engine and should never be in a truck...

My V10 will eat that Hemi for lunch.... Oh that was the other thread....sorry.:laughing:

I agree though, Ford is taking a step backwards by replacing the V10 with this thing. It may turn out to be a great engine, but still a step back to me.