Do I need a relay for grappel?

[Dale1995]

I am building my grappel for my tractor and with everyones help on this site, I will be ordering this selector valve. https://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?UID=2468021818355035&catname=&qty=1&item=9-5117-a
Do I need to install an electrical relay to power this valve? How is it wired and what is its purpose?If so what should I buy, what specifications should I be looking for? where can i purchase this, perhaps an online site? One last question, what specifications do I need for a switch, should I get a push button or toggle? You guys out there have these grapples what type of switch do you prefer.

 

[kennyd]

Whether or not you need a relay kind of depends on the switch you use...I used one-just a 30 amp Bosch style automotive relay.

 

[AKKAMAAN]

You might get away with a switch only....depends on how remote your switch will be....your coil will draw less than 2amps...so thats not a big deal...
MORE IMPORTANT is that you protect your switch or relay contact from the self induced high voltage (>100volts) that will "cavitate" or burn your contacts.....and ruin them after a while....This high voltage is induced by the coil when you disconnect circuit with the switch....(like the ignition coil for a car)
You do this with a DIODE between "plus and minus" wires to the coil.

This proctection works the same way as an anticavitation check valve for a high inertia hydraulic motor.....see my analogy on the picture....

This diode can be purchased at any Radio Shack.....choose something like this... Also you can ask Surplus Center if they have a diode recommendation.....

Push button or toggle switch depends on how you want to operate....


Edit:
Found this article about this....

 

[AKKAMAAN]

I am building my grappel for my tractor and with everyones help on this site, I will be ordering this selector valve. https://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?UID=2468021818355035&catname=&qty=1&item=9-5117-a
Do I need to install an electrical relay to power this valve?

It is custom and recommended to use a relay! They are inexpensive, and do a better job than a "cheap" switch. It also depends on how wiring can be designed.

How is it wired....

THE LOW AMP CIRCUIT:
Use a small diameter wire, AWG20-AWG24, from a PLUS terminal, use fused power, either from fuse box or use an inline fuse (5A), from fuse to switch, from switch to coil on relay (Bosch 85), from coil on relay (Bosch 86) back to a good MINUS (or GROUND if good, secure ground is available)
Now the relay should be able to switch the internal contacts when you operate the toggle switch. You should be able to hear relay "clicking"...

THE HIGH AMP CIRCUIT:
Use a large diameter wire, AWG10-AWG44, from a PLUS terminal, use fused power (use the same fuse as the LOW AMP CIRCUIT), from fuse to switch in relay (Bosch 30), from switch in relay (Bosch 87a) to valve coil (Hirschman connector), from valve coil back to a good MINUS terminal (GROUND is not recommended for solenoids)

and what is its purpose?

The purpose with the use of a relay is to remote control a large switch (high amps), with a small switch (low amps). That way we can use less expensive copper wire for the long remote switch. We also reduce the risk for VOLTAGE DROP in the critical high amp line to the coil

If so what should I buy, what specifications should I be looking for?

Buy a simple Automotive relay 12V/30A for each coil on the valve, and a simple toggle switch, 5A, for each coil on the valve...

Also get a Protection Diode for each coil on your valve, mount the diode inside the Hirschmann contact. See my previous post about diodes...

where can i purchase this, perhaps an online site?

Surplus Center have the relays and the switches.....The Hirschmann contact should come with the valve....Wire you can buy at Napa or Chucks etc....Diode at Radio Shack...

BTW Both Napa and Radio Shack should have wire, fuses, relays and switches

 

[DiskDoctr]

Some good info posted!

Let me know how this selector works for you. I am looking at the same one. I just called them today to see if they had any 3 spool selectors available, but none.

Would you mind posting a diagram of your hydraulic installation? I was wondering if I could add a single spool valve before or after to make a 3 spool for 3 selectable remotes.

Hints:

1. Use dielectric grease on the terminals BEFORE plugging in the relay to the harness shown. It is very tight and will be hard to remove.

2. Be aware there are both waterproof and non waterproof relays.

3. The relays come with a connection on both open and closed terminals or only on the closed. I always use the one with both even if I don't connect the open position. Almost no difference in price and can be quite useful

4. Solder your wire connections when possible and always use waterproof connectors. I like the heat shrink with glue inside. They also make crimp on with a piece of this same type of material over it (3M IIRC).

5. Use a waterproof switch. I like this site: Switches, Toggle Switches, Rocker Switches, Push Button Switches, Foot Switches

Hope this helps!

- JC

 

[J_J]

DiskDoctr,


You can use two of these valves. and a open center dual sub-plate similar to the ones on the right side of the page.

https://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?UID=2468022212142330&item=9-6136&catname=hydraulic

 

[DiskDoctr]

DiskDoctr,


You can use two of these valves. and a open center dual sub-plate similar to the ones on the right side of the page.

https://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?UID=2468022212142330&item=9-6136&catname=hydraulic

Thanks, JJ. Have any pics or projects anyone has done this? It would give 4 remotes, right?

Dale1995, sorry for the slight hijack. I think our projects will be related with the use of this valve, so maybe we'll both get a few tips!

- JC

 

[J_J]

Keep in mind that solenoids are an off/max on situation with no feathering

 

[DiskDoctr]

Keep in mind that solenoids are an off/max on situation with no feathering

Yeah. My existing rear remote has a control lever already. I am planning to plumb this build just before the existing remote connectors and use the joystick to control each port as selected by the solenoid.

Uhmm...should I plumb the existing remotes as position #1 on the solenoid, or after both units (manifold in the middle) and it would work sort of like a power beyond.

I don't know if the existing remotes are OC or not? I am guessing they are OC, since it doesn't create any problems when no hoses are connected. Of course, the lever/valve could be the OC as well. I am also guessing it is after the 3 PT, but don't know that, either.

Thoughts?

- JC

 

[kennyd]

I just called them today to see if they had any 3 spool selectors available, but none.

Would you mind posting a diagram of your hydraulic installation? I was wondering if I could add a single spool valve before or after to make a 3 spool for 3 selectable remotes.

THIS diverter is stackable. Perhaps you should start a new thread?

 

[kennyd]

Yeah. My existing rear remote has a control lever already. I am planning to plumb this build just before the existing remote connectors and use the joystick to control each port as selected by the solenoid.

Uhmm...should I plumb the existing remotes as position #1 on the solenoid, or after both units (manifold in the middle) and it would work sort of like a power beyond.

I don't know if the existing remotes are OC or not? I am guessing they are OC, since it doesn't create any problems when no hoses are connected. Of course, the lever/valve could be the OC as well. I am also guessing it is after the 3 PT, but don't know that, either.

Thoughts?

- JC

Remote valve is OC. The 3PH valve is usually the last valve in the circuit by default.

 

[eepete]

AKKAMAAN: the Radio Shack page doesn't say what kind of diode that is. The diode needs to be a high speed one, not one for line AC rectification. The difference is the response time. The 50 volts PIV makes me think it might be fast enough. All that said, if it's worked for you for a long period of time then it must be OK for both clamping speed and spikes that exceed the PIV from other coils in the system. Anyway, do you have a real JEDAC number for the part?

2nd thought: May not be a big deal here, but, the diode across the coil like that tends to slow down the release time of the relay. Using either an MOV (like a 18 to 24V MOV) or a small resistor in series with the diode allows the stored energy in the coil to be dissipated outside of the coil (in the MOV or resistor) which speeds up the release time and speed. Again, it may be in this application it doesn't matter. And if you oversize the relay the contact life will be OK even with a slower release. But if you've had problems with the relay contacts or the diode popping, then this could be looked into more.

3rd thought: My preferred part for this sort of thing is a power transient zener diode. It can be used for relay clamping, and can take the spikes you see from things like starter motors without have the problem you get when the spikes exceed the PIV rating. It will also do a better job when something puts ringing voltage on a line. Drawback is probably that it's not a Radio Shack part, so have to order it for real. I've used back to back TVS diodes for relay clamping to get the best of all worlds. Energy dissipated in the diode, no PIV problems, and spikes get clamped.

I've just seen too many people pop a rectification diode like a 1N4004 across a relay coil, and it's just too slow to help much.

Pete

 

[AKKAMAAN]

I can hear/read that you have way more all round experience about semi conductors than I have....but I have dealt with this, thru my 25 year hydraulic experience, and I have only used regular generic diodes, rectifier or other appropriate ones...the faster they let the energy from the spike release thru the diode the better...

AKKAMAAN: the Radio Shack page doesn't say what kind of diode that is. The diode needs to be a high speed one, not one for line AC rectification. The difference is the response time. The 50 volts PIV makes me think it might be fast enough. All that said, if it's worked for you for a long period of time then it must be OK for both clamping speed and spikes that exceed the PIV from other coils in the system. Anyway, do you have a real JEDAC number for the part?

For this prpose it is not a real big deal...for the valve coil you can use this one...

2nd thought: May not be a big deal here, but, the diode across the coil like that tends to slow down the release time of the relay.

No, that's not going to happen...

Using either an MOV (like a 18 to 24V MOV) or a small resistor in series with the diode allows the stored energy in the coil to be dissipated outside of the coil (in the MOV or resistor) which speeds up the release time and speed. Again, it may be in this application it doesn't matter.

No it does not matter

And if you oversize the relay the contact life will be OK even with a slower release.

This vhigh voltage spike has nothing to do with contact release time....

But if you've had problems with the relay contacts or the diode popping, then this could be looked into more.

This diode eliminate 99% of the wear on the relay or switch contacts..

3rd thought: My preferred part for this sort of thing is a power transient zener diode. It can be used for relay clamping, and can take the spikes you see from things like starter motors without have the problem you get when the spikes exceed the PIV rating. It will also do a better job when something puts ringing voltage on a line. Drawback is probably that it's not a Radio Shack part, so have to order it for real. I've used back to back TVS diodes for relay clamping to get the best of all worlds. Energy dissipated in the diode, no PIV problems, and spikes get clamped.

I've just seen too many people pop a rectification diode like a 1N4004 across a relay coil, and it's just too slow to help much.

Pete

I would not choose a Zener diode....that would delay the release of the spike energy....I would choose a diode with a low forward voltage drop....

 

[eepete]

AKKAMAAN: OK on all that. Sounds like all the 2nd and 3rd order details just don't matter here. Gotta love something that works

In the "knowledge just for fun" department, the simple diode means that the energy stored in coil has to be dissipated in the coil. So the release time does get longer, and the contacts release with less of a "snap". Again, here it doesn't seem to matter. This is also why the MOV or back to back zener results in faster release. More energy is dissipated in devices instead of the coil.

The zener doesn't delay the release of the energy. In fact, it looks just like the plain old diode (but a high speed one) because you use it in a forward biased mode, not in the zener mode. The zener part of the diode just means you have less worry about exceeding the PIV rating with spikes on the power line since the part is designed to "get kicked" by them.

At any rate, you've got a tested solution with readily available parts. I suspect it also doesn't hurt that the number of cycles the relay gets per year is probably low (<2500 or so?).

Pete

 

[wildwillie]

I picked up a switch at my local Honda ATV dealer for $20.00 Two position momentary and water resistant. it is for a wench.

 

[AKKAMAAN]

I picked up a switch at my local Honda ATV dealer for $20.00 Two position momentary and water resistant. it is for a wench.

pricy!!...Was that a high Amp switch then??

I think I would have tried another source...(online)......LOL...unless I was stranded...

 

[Brad_Blazer]

Snip....Uhmm...should I plumb the existing remotes as position #1 on the solenoid, or after both units (manifold in the middle) and it would work sort of like a power beyond. ...Snip
- JC

If you use a solenoid valve like the ones linked they are plumbed like control valves and you want the "in" and "out" ports of each valve set in series on the circulating "power beyond" loop. All of the work ports should be independant. The solenoid valve should come last since most do not have a low pressure return line separate from the outlet port (aka "power beyond").

 

[DiskDoctr]

If you use a solenoid valve like the ones linked they are plumbed like control valves and you want the "in" and "out" ports of each valve set in series on the circulating "power beyond" loop. All of the work ports should be independant. The solenoid valve should come last since most do not have a low pressure return line separate from the outlet port (aka "power beyond").

Thanks, Brad, for your reply. I've started a new thread here:
Hydraulic system diagram with factory remote and DA Questions - TractorByNet.com

I think it shows what you mention. Any tips on that thread is most appreciated, too.

- JC