8N starter or voltage reg. stuck on?

[simonmeridew]

One day this winter, the battery was dead on my 1950 8N. I bought a new 6 volt battery, when I tried to hook it up, solenoid clicked and it tried to start the tractor, without me pushing the switch, etc. Disconnected the wiring from the starter switch. Same deal. I put a new VR on about 30 years ago and it's been fine since, always starts, charges etc, starts even below zero. Nothing flaky about the wiring, conventional circuit. Is a contact stuck on my voltage regulator?
simonmeridew

 

[Just Bill]

Hello
It sounds like the starter solenoid is stuck.
A stuck VR might run the battery down but won't cause it to try to start.

 

[Soundguy]

an 8n uses a thumb sized switch on the trans stop that merely grounds the small terminal on the solenoid. if the switch is internally shorted, or the wire from the switch to the relay is shorted to ground, then it will try to energize the solenoid when hooked up. pullthe small wire off the solenoid.. if it still wants to spin, then the solenoid is stuck.. might free up by tapping on it.. but I think I'd replace it with another 3 terminal oem ford 8n solenoid.. and make sure you install it the same way.. small terminal towards block.. otherwise it won't work.

ps, as other poster said.. vreg has -0- to do with starting circuit..

soundguy

 

[mrpoppy58]

I had the same problem with My 8n. I called n-complete. The Man said the Starter switch was dirty and needed cleaned. I cleaned it and no more problem.
Mr poppy

 

[simonmeridew]

I did try disconnecting the wire to the starter button completely and the starter still wanted to go when I connected the battery cable. I'll try the investigating the solenoid as soon as I can get to it. Thanks for the replies.
simonmeridew

 

[Soundguy]

I did try disconnecting the wire to the starter button completely and the starter still wanted to go when I connected the battery cable. I'll try the investigating the solenoid as soon as I can get to it. Thanks for the replies.
simonmeridew

I didn't say pull the small wire off the start switch.. I said to pull the small wire off the SOLENOID itself. that small wire can be shorted to ground and still energize the starter if the bat cables are hooked up.. that's what I -specifically- gave you those instructions.. to rule the wireing out, vs the solenoid contacts themselves.

soundguy

 

[simonmeridew]

Sorry Soundguy, please don't take offense. I took the wire off the starter button probably 6 weeks ago and was only relating what I have done so far. Can't really work on the tractor in the winter here; wrenches freeze to your hands and I can't work with heavy gloves on. So I won't be able to report any progress till it warms up, hopefully mid March/early April. I'm listening to advice and gathering information, and will follow it. Thanks
simonmeridew

 

[simonmeridew]

Update:
Two miracles: 42 degrees out today, and..... I took the wire off the solenoid as directed, hitched the battery up, touched the wire back on the solenoid contact and saw two sparks: one on the solenoid contact, and one on one of the generator posts. It seems the wire connector on the generator was bent downward and partially shorting out on the generator casing itself; I haven't looked at the wiring diagram yet but evidently the solenoid was grounding out on the generator. I'm glad I saw that spark out of the corner of my eye.
I hooked everything back up, put some liquid electrical tape on the generator connector and pressed the starter: bingo, half a crank and it started.
simonmeridew

 

[Soundguy]

I'd say the genny was shorting out the solenoid, not the other way around, since the tab on the genny was the one bent, and presumably, touching case ( chassie ground ), with the bat side of the solenoid being 'hot'.

However.. this also kinda tells me that the cutout between the battery and armature are stuck or welded closed, as there should be no contact between the hot side of the solenoid and the armature side of the generator unless the engine is running and generator is 'generatin'...

soundguy

 

[simonmeridew]

thanks for the heads up... is the "cutout" located in the voltage regulator?

Without buying a new ammeter I won't be able to tell if the genny is charging. My ammeter is original and the little rubber ring inside the ammeter dial under the glass has come apart and fell down on the indicator needle, holding it in one position.
I guess I could measure voltage with a voltmeter with the engine off and engine on; what does the genny charge at normally, about 7 volts?
simonmeridew

 

[Soundguy]

yep.. you can use the volt meter to check for charge... figure 7.2v at high rpm.. and a static of 6.2 or 6.3 for a good well charged 6v battery.

Is your ammeter a loop style with a wire running thru a small loop on the back, vs haveing wire connections to 2 posts?

The cutout is a portion of the vreg assembly..

soundguy

 

[simonmeridew]

I was somewhat shocked to measure voltage on my tractor this afternoon.
Results: measured at the starter switch terminal:
engine off, new battery 6.4 volts
engine on, measured same spot:.... 13.8 volts, sometimes jumping to over 14.
I shut it off, and remeasured: same result.
something must be stuck in the VR

Yes, the ammeter is an induction type, no direct connection, I assume it is original. That's the reason I haven't replaced the ammeter: the ones I have seen are all the cut and terminal type ammeters and I hated to do that.
simonmeridew

 

[Soundguy]

I bet you used a conumer grade digital volt ohm meter.. perhaps even an autoranger .. am I correct?

if voltage was really that high, then you would lkikely show super high charge like 30a on the ammeter.. more likely you have a bad voltage reading due to the meter you used.. consumer grade meters and cheap industrials are not compensated meters and brush and ignition nose fools their sampling rate scheme into thinking voltage is higher... a cheap 5$ analog is actually better on an old brush / points system..

soundguy

 

[simonmeridew]

not sure about the multimeter--Radio Shack not particularly cheap digital as you said,--has not shown previous inaccuracy, but brush/points certainly present in tractor. I'm always ready to learn, but ammeter non functional as my pic shows.
My headlights are not hooked up, but I'll try to hook up some 6 volt test light; exceptionally high voltage (14 volts) would show very obvious brightening when engine runs vs battery only.
simonmeridew

 

[Soundguy]

new ammeter costs ($ for a sunpro.. hook it up and you don't have to guess anymore.

ratshack makes a decent consumer grade meter for general purpose work.. however they are not compensated meters.. Put it this way.. if it didn't cost a few bills.. it's a consumer or light duty grade meter.. not industrial or lab grade, which are decent $$, accurate in noisy environments and compensated. I use a graphing meter with freq counter and non auto ranging functions. auto rangers are the worst when it comes to noisy lines.

soundguy