How to figure out property line over hills/woods

/ How to figure out property line over hills/woods #41  
Stright line, horizontal, or level footage should be all that is shown. Can't gain ground going up and down hills. :)
 
/ How to figure out property line over hills/woods #42  
Joseph,

Good question. I should have discussed that. Distances are always horizontal distances.

You measure the slope from the scale on the side of the transit and may need a hand lens to read it accurately. My memory says the slope is shown in degrees; in forestry we used percent slope. I'll assume the transit lists slope in degrees; if it is in percent, maybe someone will correct me and I'll discuss how to convert slopes in percent to horizontal distance.

The simplest thing to do if the slope isn't very steep is to hold the tape horizontal.

If it's too steep to hold the tape horizontal, it gets complicated. In forestry school we had slope reduction tables we could refer to that converted slope distance to horizontal distance. I can't seem to find slope reduction tables online.

You have to use trig. If you wrestled thru math, fear not, I'll walk you thru it; it isn't hard. You just need a scientific calculator, one with sines, cosines and tangents, although you will only use the cosine function, shown as "cos" on the calculator.

1. Measure the slope angle.
2. Measure the slope distance.
3. Enter the slope angle in the calculator.
4. Hit the cosine key.
5. Hit the asterisk (*) key, then enter the slope distance.
6. Hit the = sign and you get your answer. If you did it right, the answer will always be smaller than the slope distance.

For a 10 degree slope, you should enter 10, then cosine key gives you .9848..., then hit *, then 100, then = and you get 98.48, which is your horizontal distance.

15 degree slope, 150 feet, you get 144.888 feet horizontal distance. Easy, isn't it?

No calculator? Windows has a calculator function. Go to "Start" in the lower left corner, click on "All Programs", then "Accessories" and you'll find the calculator function. When you bring that up and go to "View" and click on "Scientific", you will get all the trig functions.
 
/ How to figure out property line over hills/woods #43  
I think I can picture it. Joesph, picture a tripod with a wire hanging below it. Than take the string line you want for your line and hang it from the wire below the tripod. This would allow it to hang free and give you the correct line. The problem is, if you have a 30' high hill, your tripod would have to be 30 feet high. At least thats my take on his idea, and it would work in theory if you can build the string line high enough.

Hang in there Dodge Man!!! Good advice! I'm also a licensed surveyor and I've tried to explain to landowners how to mark a straight line over a hill. If they don't mind that it could be several feet off in the middle they can use some of the methods described here. Although I've had some cases where someone sees his neighbor marking the line himself and is immediately suspect of the line location because it was not marked by a disinterested party "a surveyor". He thinks his neighbor is 'fudging' to his own advantage. This is a good discussion and I enjoy reading something that pertains to my profession.

Ralph
 
/ How to figure out property line over hills/woods #44  
Joseph,

Good question. I should have discussed that. Distances are always horizontal distances.

You measure the slope from the scale on the side of the transit and may need a hand lens to read it accurately. My memory says the slope is shown in degrees; in forestry we used percent slope. I'll assume the transit lists slope in degrees; if it is in percent, maybe someone will correct me and I'll discuss how to convert slopes in percent to horizontal distance.

The simplest thing to do if the slope isn't very steep is to hold the tape horizontal.

If it's too steep to hold the tape horizontal, it gets complicated. In forestry school we had slope reduction tables we could refer to that converted slope distance to horizontal distance. I can't seem to find slope reduction tables online.

You have to use trig. If you wrestled thru math, fear not, I'll walk you thru it; it isn't hard. You just need a scientific calculator, one with sines, cosines and tangents, although you will only use the cosine function, shown as "cos" on the calculator.

1. Measure the slope angle.
2. Measure the slope distance.
3. Enter the slope angle in the calculator.
4. Hit the cosine key.
5. Hit the asterisk (*) key, then enter the slope distance.
6. Hit the = sign and you get your answer. If you did it right, the answer will always be smaller than the slope distance.

For a 10 degree slope, you should enter 10, then cosine key gives you .9848..., then hit *, then 100, then = and you get 98.48, which is your horizontal distance.

15 degree slope, 150 feet, you get 144.888 feet horizontal distance. Easy, isn't it?

No calculator? Windows has a calculator function. Go to "Start" in the lower left corner, click on "All Programs", then "Accessories" and you'll find the calculator function. When you bring that up and go to "View" and click on "Scientific", you will get all the trig functions.

yes it is easy if you like math, it is good advice but the origional poster has his corners marked so it don't matter to him. He just needs to get from one to another in a straight line. He doesn't have to worry about the distance.
 
/ How to figure out property line over hills/woods #45  
Hang in there Dodge Man!!! Good advice! I'm also a licensed surveyor and I've tried to explain to landowners how to mark a straight line over a hill. If they don't mind that it could be several feet off in the middle they can use some of the methods described here. Although I've had some cases where someone sees his neighbor marking the line himself and is immediately suspect of the line location because it was not marked by a disinterested party "a surveyor". He thinks his neighbor is 'fudging' to his own advantage. This is a good discussion and I enjoy reading something that pertains to my profession.

Ralph

O.K. mister surveyor do you want to let us in on your trade secrets?:confused:

You have stated that you have tried to explain to landowners how to mark a straight line over a hill. I don't see you doing that here. We are all ears. :) Am I missing something?:confused:

Would you please tell us? Has the GPS system made your job any easier? Have you reduced your hourly rate to reflect the advantages of technology or does the company you work for just add the increased production capacity to their profits? Can you plot a line that is straighter than a laser?

We are just a bunch of dumb farmers trying to get by. We all want to know.
We have paid to have our property corners marked, that is the hard part. Please tell us how to connect the dots without going broke.:eek:
 
/ How to figure out property line over hills/woods #46  
While I appreciate saving money, am supportive of the "do it yourself philosophy" and the desires to just mark "close enough" boundaries, and while that is all the OP stated as his desire, in the end, only a registered land surveyor (RLS) can certify the results on legal documents and provide the basis of any dispute resolution.

If not on this occasion, at some time in the future, as monies permit, a boundary survey on one's property is in order. When we took possession of our property last spring, it was one of the first things we did. Turns out, all was in order, but we did stake the north boundary every 50' with flags and it resolved some slight misunderstandings with the neighbors on that side. Fencing isn't cheap and it seems like it should be installed on one's own property, not on someone else's. You might get a RLS, who works for a larger firm, to do the work "on the side" for fairly reasonable.

Our's only cost us lunch. My son is a registered land surveyor.
Oh, yea, I forgot the cost of tuition at Ferris State University!!!:D:D
 
/ How to figure out property line over hills/woods
  • Thread Starter
#47  
Hi Survriggs, I would also be interested if you have another method to share.

Thanks,
Joseph
 
/ How to figure out property line over hills/woods #48  
O.K. mister surveyor do you want to let us in on your trade secrets?:confused:

You have stated that you have tried to explain to landowners how to mark a straight line over a hill. I don't see you doing that here. We are all ears. :) Am I missing something?:confused:

Would you please tell us? Has the GPS system made your job any easier? Have you reduced your hourly rate to reflect the advantages of technology or does the company you work for just add the increased production capacity to their profits? Can you plot a line that is straighter than a laser?

We are just a bunch of dumb farmers trying to get by. We all want to know.
We have paid to have our property corners marked, that is the hard part. Please tell us how to connect the dots without going broke.:eek:

Hey Steve, why the sarcasm? Having a bad day, there buddy? We all do but attract more bees with honey than vinegar.
Just sayin'.
 
/ How to figure out property line over hills/woods #49  
While I appreciate saving money, am supportive of the "do it yourself philosophy" and the desires to just mark "close enough" boundaries, and while that is all the OP stated as his desire, in the end, only a registered land surveyor (RLS) can certify the results on legal documents and provide the basis of any dispute resolution.


Our's only cost us lunch. My son is a registered land surveyor.
Oh, yea, I forgot the cost of tuition at Ferris State University!!!:D:D

LOL on the surveyor. I have zero ROI on my tuition fees, you are lucky :D

This makes sense to me. When we bought our lot, I asked the seller to split the cost of a complete survey, which he did. There are pins at all corners and kinks, plus the surveyors blazed the trees on the line. The closing was on hold until the survey was done and we had a chance to walk the lines.

The land had been through lots of divisions, there was a 16 acre piece that was deeded over to the adjacent landowner to compensate for timber trespassing, a small stream runs across the back which I wanted to know if it was inside the boundaries or not. Just a lot of issues that I wanted to forget about with a new survey which gets registered at the county office.

I just refreshed the blazes this fall using Nelson forestry paint in the spray cans. I don't plan on fencing or building anywhere near my lines, but I think it is important to keep them marked and to know where they are for sure.

It also makes it easier to re-sell land, should that ever be needed, if you can point to well marked boundaries.

Dave.
 
/ How to figure out property line over hills/woods #50  
Okay, being a PLS, I'll let you in on my trade secrets, 4 years of college and 25 years experience.:D You guys are kind of freaking me out now. Advice is flying all over the place, some of which if good and some not so good.

First off, GPS is great in the open, not worth a darn in the woods. Like somone else said, the cosumer grade stuff will get you close, but not close enough and it doesn't work as well in the trees either.

The lasers aren't a bad idea, but how do you know the one laser is shooting straight up in the air? And I don't mean sorta close, but exactly. A carpteners level is not good enough to determine if it is plumb.

Yes, distances are measured horizontally, as if the world is flat.

The real trade secret is in the math, which is all done by hand held data collectors now. For example take a lot in town. Imagine a line 100' long with corners on both ends but a large tree in the middle. You set a new point at a random location about halfway between the two corners but roughly 30' off the line. From this new point you can see both corners, you measure the angle between the two corners and the distances from your new point to the two corners. You can then do the math and set points on the boundary line at any location you want from this random point. The math in the past was pretty time consuming, even with calculators, but with hand held computers, its very fast. The cost of the equimpment I just described would be around $10,000. You need a total station(a modern transit), which measures the distances electronically, prisims, which are refelectors, and a hand held computer. Then you need the knowledge in how to use it. In my above example if the line is say 3000' long, it takes multiple random points and alot more work to calculate points on the line.

The best advice from above is to hire a proffesional to do it. It could be done with a transit, but the problem is in the knowledge on how to use it. Someone described running a random line above, this would also work if done correctly. In one of my above posts, I described wiggiling in on the line with a transit, this would be the best method. The problem with doing it yourself is how do you know you are correct? Thats something you gain with experience.

The bottom line is I have perfromed hundreds of boundary surveys, several of which are on hilly wooded ground. I have located fences along boundaries that are one half mile apart(a quarter section line). It is not unusual to see these fences several feet off. I'm sure alot of these fences were put in using some of the above described methods by do it yourselfers. As a land owner, you have the right to do this yourself, it up to you to determine your comfort level. If the land is not very vaulable, and your adjoiner is O.K. with you doing it yourself, have at it. Otherwise hire a proffesional.
 
/ How to figure out property line over hills/woods #51  
BTW Dave1949, you are a responsible land owner. You paid good money for a survey and are doing a good job maintaining your boundries. I am suprised at how often I do a survey and a few years latter they are calling us again because they didn't maintain the corners and they no longer know where they are.
 
/ How to figure out property line over hills/woods #52  
Hey Steve, why the sarcasm? Having a bad day, there buddy? We all do but attract more bees with honey than vinegar.
Just sayin'.

I must appologize for that if that is the way it is interpeted. I sometimes forget that written communication doesn't carry the subtle voice inflections that spoken words do so when in my head I am thinking it is going to sound one way, the person reading it may read the same words and get a different meaning. :eek:

The man is a professional surveyor. If I was having a cup of coffee with him and he said " I've tried to explain to landowners how to mark a straight line over a hill. If they don't mind that it could be several feet off in the middle they can use some of the methods described here." :rolleyes:

I would have to tell him that I agree that some of these ideas are not as good as some others and none of them are a professional solution to the problem.:eek:

Well then, you have told us that we are doing it wrong, and you have told us that you have told people in the past how to do it right. :cool:

Are you going to share that information with us or are you just going to say na na, na na,na
I know and you dont!:p

If I was speaking to him this it would be said in a light hearted and kidding nature such as 2 old friend kidding each other.:D:D:D:D

I worked with a couple of brothers, Joe and Ben Garza, who went through the Ferris State Surveyor program. They told me that modern technology and GPS has made the surveyors job so much easier than it was in "the old days" that it is no longer any where near as difficult as it used to be.:cool:

I worked on a construction crew to build a very high end 4,500 square foot 4 bedroom 5 bathroom house (the master bath is 14 x 20) with a 3 car attached garage and a 40 x 80 pole barn for the "toys" on a 160 acre estate for a man who is "part" owner of a local survey company. I made the assumption, perhaps in error that the increased productivity and profits due to advancements in technology are what allowed him to live so well. Most of the other businesses in this area are not doing so well.

I see that the local survey crews around here all have gps units mounted on tri-pods. Since I know nothing about surveying (and very little about anything else) I don't know if this is just a local to Michigan or if it is used nation wide. They seem to do a lot less crawling through the swamp than they used to.

I suspect that the men in the field are not sharing the benifits of the increased productivity.:(
 
/ How to figure out property line over hills/woods #53  
Right on Steve C.

I didn't take your "come on, tell us how to do it right, and don't leave us hangin" response as bad or in poor taste. And you are smack on, when written communication leaves out the tone of voice and the chuckles that are important to good communication. :) More smileys would help that a lot. (grin)
 
/ How to figure out property line over hills/woods #54  
Hey, SteveC, You're OK.

Say it again, if I am laying out fencing on the interior of my property, that's my business, well, except for calling Miss Dig or whatever your utility company calls it.

A professional land surveyor cannot simply say "do this" or "do that". He establishes points and lines using complex, expensive equipment, figures using complex mathematical formulas, checks and re-checks his trig and calculus over and over and against figuring it a couples ways to be sure. The tools have gotten more sophisticated, but in some ways, the surveyor has to be even smarter and more experienced than ever. Those tools aren't going to take away his role. Finally, it is his PLS or RLS Number that is assigned to the result. His butt's on the line for the accuracy of it.

But when I am laying out expensive fencing? On/near a property line? Or building a barn or any other expensive improvement anywhere near a property line? It is the land owners responsibility to know where the lines are, pure and simple. If I cannot say with certainty to within less than a foot? Call a pro. End of story.

You can be dang sure this old boy would know where those boundaries were before sinking my money and labor into a project. I know where my lines are. Yes sir, Dang right.
 
/ How to figure out property line over hills/woods #55  
A professional land surveyor cannot simply say "do this" or "do that". He establishes points and lines using complex, expensive equipment, figures using complex mathematical formulas, checks and re-checks his trig and calculus over and over and against figuring it a couples ways to be sure. The tools have gotten more sophisticated, but in some ways, the surveyor has to be even smarter and more experienced than ever. Those tools aren't going to take away his role. Finally, it is his PLS or RLS Number that is assigned to the result. His butt's on the line for the accuracy of it.
Hey BP, you aren't a surveyor are you?;) That was written like one. The only thing wrong is that I haven't done any calculus since I was in college:eek:, but the rest is spot on.
 
/ How to figure out property line over hills/woods
  • Thread Starter
#56  
All,
I think after reading all of these posts, I have a finalized plan. I think I am going to rent a transit for a few days. Then perform the "wiggle in" method as Dodgeman described.

I will just go to the top where that 10' wide area is and set a stake - just by sight. Then go back to the last stake that is already there, shoot back to the other existing stake and rotate 180. Then, keep moving my new stake until it is in line, and then move on down the river bank, using the same method. I can also go back from the river bank, the opposide direction, and see if I can hit the other starting point on the other side.

I think one thing that is a big advantage for me is that I have 3 stakes behind me to look at, that are on the same bearing according to the plat, and do the 180 references off of those.

Thanks again for everyones help. It is great to have some really smart folks to bounce ideas off of!

Joseph
 
/ How to figure out property line over hills/woods #57  
Thats a good plan. As someone else described, don't turn a 180 degree angle, to many chances to make a mistake if you don't have the experience. Instead "flop" the scope. Just loosen the vertical motion and flop the scope over, you will see what I mean when you get the transit. Make sure you level up the gun good each time also.
 
/ How to figure out property line over hills/woods
  • Thread Starter
#58  
Thanks Dodgeman!
 
/ How to figure out property line over hills/woods #59  
Steve C,

He does need to know the horizontal distances. His line will be off to the side by X many feet when he hits his target corner, so he needs to know exactly how far out each point is, in horizontal distance, so he can accurately adjust for his final line. Suppose his property line is half a mile long, 2640 feet, theoretically, but often surveyed ad something different, say 2641.2 feet. As he runs his line over hill and dale, measuring only slope distance, he may record 2683.5 feet total, because slope distances, when laid flat are longer than horizontal distances. He also has error off to the side, maybe 25 feet. Without knowing how far out each point is from the starting point, in horizontal distance you don't know how much to adjust the line for that 25 ft. error off to the side. So you must adjust for slope. And it ain't that hard.

There are certainly circumstances where one should hire a pro. I run the line myself when I have relatively low value land and where the consequences of an error are not great and I am just running from corner to corner. On my property and my neighbor's we have small second growth Douglas-fir; if I cut a tree that turns our to be on his property, triple damages on a $75 tree is less than the cost of a survey, so I'll take the risk. If the stands were large cedars at $1,000 per 1000 board feet, I would hire a pro.
 
/ How to figure out property line over hills/woods
  • Thread Starter
#60  
Actually, since the footage of the straight line on the run I need to do is marked on the survey, I can just use some trig to calculate the "offset" line distance, since I already know the value of the correct line and I can measure how far off I am from the stake.

I am hoping that if I am careful, and run from both directions, I can minimize my error, so hopefully an offset won't be much of an issue.
 

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