FEL Hydraulic Control 3rd Line connection??

[deepNdirt]

Hello all,
I have recently hooked up a FEL onto my Yanmar 1700, all the connection are made and working, although there is a 3rd line I would prefer not to have if not necessary and serves no purpose? I have had the advice of 2 tractor tech people and I need someone to confirm what their advising me to do,
(sorry guys if your reading this) anyway's! the loader has a single joystick control, with a simple inlet and return to reservoir line/hose, 1 person tells me I should use the power beyond adaptor and send the 3rd line back to dump into the reservoir, this 3rd line is quite in the way and I will have to plum out some way to make the connection, for now it is simply sticking into the fill hole,...... now the other person has me removing the "power Beyond" adaptor connecting the return line right into the control valve and removing the long hose coming out of the top side of the control valve and simply capping that connection off .....<----- now to back up a couple weeks ago when I first hooked the FEL up, I had all the connection made and the loader bucket would go up but would not come back down,
a friend of mine that was helping me suggest that I reverse the connections and perhap the bucket should come back down until we could figure out the problem, well when this was done the Pump bust wide open, we figured out right fast this wasn't the right thing to do,... come to find out latter this 3rd line that we assume went to a implemnt that might had been connected to the other tractor 3 pnt lift . this line was capped off and not allowing the fluid to flow back out of the system,....... Now! as I said this line now dumps into the fill hole of the reservoir now and all is working fine, But it would be great if I could eliminate this 3rd line, because it is in my way, and it will cause a problem when " Quick connecting" the loader. it won't be so quick, I have Quick connecting coupler on the fluid lines and it has saddle's for the loader to rest on, about a 3 minute connection, and with this 3rd line makes it about a 10 minute connection..
But on the other hand If it has to be on there then so be it! I certanly dont want to be buying another 300 dollar pump, I've already made 1 mistake I dont need to make another,
Thanks for your input and advice you can provide ...

 

[J_J]

If you want to get rid of the plugged hose or third hose, and

If you are not using the PB port, take the adapter out and install a standard plug. Then you will have one line in, and one line out and 4 lines from the work ports.

Your finger is pointing to the fluid out for the valve, when using the cylinders,

I believe I know what you did. You dead headed the pump, and bad things will happen. In the picture, there is a hose connected to the PB port, and I believe there is plug at the other end. When you are using a valve with a PB plug installed, that becomes the out, or flow through for the valve. The valve also has the regular outlet to expend the fluid from the cylinders, and this should go to tank.. If it was connected as in the picture, then you could expect the pump to burst.

You can send both the PB and the out hose back to tank. It is your choice.

 

[SouthernConservative]

Follow what J J has indicated - I added a 3rd function to my Kubota and he was one person whom I sought out for thier view. If you don't return the line to the tank you will burn up a pump......

 

[deepNdirt]

the 1st pictures is of the 3rd line asit were capped when we reversed the inlet and return line and cracked the pump,
2nd picture where I'm pointing is where the other end of this 3rd line connected to the control valve,
3rd picture is the QD's at the pump, (the small line) to the right is the QD's output of the pump to the input of the control, the left Qd's is comming back from the control valve and connect to the same small line sending the fluid back into the tank,
the 4th pictures is showing where this 3rd ling is dumping back into the fill hole of the tank, there is a dipstick suppose to go here, If I have to use this 3rd line I will have to adapt this hole to fit the end of the 3rd line, making it more dificult to "quick connect" the loader and vice verse... what I have been told by one of these trator tech person is to cap off the part i am pointing at, and remove the PB adaptor you see just under there and have this return line go right into the control valve insted of the PB adaptor, Is this also what you are saying JJ? can this be done? without harming the pump again? the other tech told me I had to have this 3rd line to dump back into the tank
so far now I think I have 2 that say to eliminate the PB and the 3rd Line/hose, this is what I hope can be done?... I have no plans for using another Hydaulic tool on the rear, all I need is the 3-pnt lift and the FEL.. and if this is only reason for this line? I'd rather not have it...
Thanks

 

[kennyd]

Yes, you can remove the PB plug on the valve to eliminate the "3rd" line as you call it.

Who makes the valve? Getting the proper plug to cap off the port in the valve after the PB plug is removed will determine your next step.

If you decide to keep the PB line...then it needs to hook to the port on the tranny that feeds the 3PH, and the OUT port on the valve goes to the sump.

 

[J_J]

The manufactures label is below your finger in the picture. I would just take out the PB sleeve and take it to a hyd shop, and they will find you a plug for that port. Do you see a relief valve on there anywhere. This is one of those situation where a pump relief valve would have maybe saved the pump

 

[deepNdirt]

Yes, you can remove the PB plug on the valve to eliminate the "3rd" line as you call it.

Who makes the valve? Getting the proper plug to cap off the port in the valve after the PB plug is removed will determine your next step.

If you decide to keep the PB line...then it needs to hook to the port on the tranny that feeds the 3PH, and the OUT port on the valve goes to the sump.

Hmmmm? so now let me see if I understand this correctly,
it's not a matter of simply removing the PB and making the connection from the return line directly to the same port..... but to now plug this port? and use which port for the return line to the reservoir? the top port? from which the 3rd line would be going to the rear now becomes the return port back to the left side Qd's.... either I am getting way off of understanding this? or I have been thrown another curveball,.......

JJ are you agreeing that the existing port that now has the PB adaptor should be plugged off after removing the PB ? this is where the existing return line come out and goes back to the tractors line and then back to the reservoir/tank, and I should simply move this line to the top port and turn the top port that i am pointing at in the picture into the return port? and connect it to the tractors return line that goes back to the reseroir?
This will let me eliminate the 3rd line/hose?
the control valve is made by ( BLB ) and is model BM40
here is there link---> http://www.blbhydraulic.it/bm40.html

 

[J_J]

Yes, remove the PB sleeve,and plug it, and you do not need that hose for anything. I believe your finger is pointing to the return port for the valve, and this hose goes to tank. Sometimes there are letters around the ports. P, T. PB, , and sometimes there are two return ports, one may be on top, and another may be on the side. You could use either.

 

[kennyd]

You cannot simply remove the PB hose and cap the line, you must remove the PB plug that is installed (called "carry-over" on the BM40 Configuration page) and then plug the port-and i doubt it's a "off-the-shelf" plug.

Of the PB line is not uses, then the oil from the IN port will flow directly to the OUT port, so that would connect to the tranny that that intern feeds the 3PH.


You must verify that you can get the PB plug out and a cap for the port before you do anything else...

 

[deepNdirt]

Yes, remove the PB sleeve,and plug it, and you do not need that hose for anything. I believe your finger is pointing to the return port for the valve, and this hose goes to tank. Sometimes there are letters around the ports. P, T. PB, , and sometimes there are two return ports, one may be on top, and another may be on the side. You could use either.

Ok Now this sounds to be close to what I have been told before, except for the plugging of the port where the "PB sleeve" will be removed, and this line is in fact the line that now returns back to the tractor return line, the top line "3rd line" in question and I think was told to be called a "dump line" is the one that now runs back and dumps into the fill hole that I would like to remove... it seems both of these lines are used as return lines? could I not simply remove the top "3rd line and plug it? and then remove the PB and connect diretly to the valve port behind the PB sleeve ?.........................
let me try to explain the way I purchased this loader from a man who had a Mitsubishi tractor, he give me everything from his tractor to try make things simple when reconnecting to my tractor, all the lines as you see them now were hooked up on his tractor in the same manner as i watched him remove them, this 3rd line was connected to the rear of the Mitsu in some way, I guess was a hole in the houseing for dump return, he capped off all line so's not to loose the fluid, no line were removed from the control valve, so it was rather easy to establish the inlet line from the return line being as it is now, anyway, in fact I did the plumbing 2 weeks ahead of time while awaiting forthe mounting bracket to be made and simply connected them back together with a loop line soi could keep using the tractor meanwhile,
It was very obvious as to where to connect these lines,
except for this "3rd line" LOL and again as i said I got evrything all hooked up to try out when the bucket would only lift and not come down, this is when we try to reverse the 2 lines inlet & return in attempt to get the bucket down, when pump cracked, "dead headed" as you say.. well regaurdless of cracking the pump i still attempt to work with this to get the FEL to work correctly, when I got intouch with a tractor tech and he suggest that i remove the PB and connect the renturn line directly into the same port,
so i did this and all seem to be working fine despite the fact of fluid spraying everywhere, so I awaited the new pump when the next tractor tech delivered it to me to be sure it was connected corretly and seen the way I had the connection made he said he could not waranty this new pump if I did not use the "3rd line" with the PB adaptor, so i hope you guys understand why it is important that I do this right this time around, I mean it is working good now, But I dont wantto have to deal with this 3rd line if it is not needed for anything..... sorry for such long explanation I promise I'll shut up when I have come to a conclusion,

 

[deepNdirt]

Rather then to eddit my last post and have you re-read it, I would like to note that when I had eliminated the PB from the valve and had the return line connected directly to the this port i also had removed the top 3rd line and had thisport capped off, and the FEL did in fact work correctly while spraying fluid everywhere, LOL I told the the tractor tech that this was the way i was told to do it, is when he disputed the other man and told me he coulod not let me hook it up that way, i showed him it was working ,but his explanation was because the Pump was cracked and had way to realease pressure , Hmmm? so i reconnect everything his way, he certainly knew more than I ......after all i was the one that bust the last pump...

 

[deepNdirt]

You cannot simply remove the PB hose and cap the line.

No certainly not!
if i were to remove the PB I was asking if I could re-connect the return line back directly into this port from which i had removed the PB, not at all cap off any lines, I think I was asking of capping off the the top port from which the 3rd line were to be removed, the 3rd line is the rubber hose that goes to the back of the tractor and dumps into the fill hole for now, there serves no purpose other then to be in the way,

 

[J_J]

One more time now. Remove the PB sleeve. You have now opened the chamber between the tank port, and the PB port. They are now one and the same. The correct way is to purchase a new plug for the PB port, and install it. The hose on the T port should go to tank.

This is an option. Remove the PB sleeve. Remove the T=tank top return hose and install it in the PB port. Now Plug the T port. I am only saying this , because you want to use the tank return hose because it goes to the tank.

Apparently you only have a relief valve for the work ports, and that is OK, as long as you don't block the fluid from flowing in the normal path.

Another good bit of advise is about QD's, if a QD were to come loose while the pump is running, bad things will happen. Some good advise would be to put a relief valve across the pump before any other connections. Now, should you dead head, or pop one of the QD's, the pump will be protected.

If you have a manual, note down what you have done, so the next person will have a guide.

 

[kennyd]

Ok Now this sounds to be close to what I have been told before, except for the plugging of the port where the "PB sleeve" will be removed, and this line is in fact the line that now returns back to the tractor return line, the top line "3rd line" in question and I think was told to be called a "dump line" is the one that now runs back and dumps into the fill hole that I would like to remove... it seems both of these lines are used as return lines? could I not simply remove the top "3rd line and plug it? and then remove the PB and connect diretly to the valve port behind the PB sleeve ?.........................

Here is as simple as I can make it:

IF you have the PB sleeve installed-then you NEED both hoses. The PB carries the flow to the next valve in the series (your 3PH). The OUT or T port carries the waste oil from the work ports to the sump(tank, reservoir)


IF you remove the PB sleeve and plug that port, then you ONLY need the OUT or T port connected to the tranny.

 

[J_J]

kennyd


I think this repeating things from different people is only confusing things.

If you disagree with what I have posted, then, correct that part only.

 

[deepNdirt]

I've been reading back thru the thread replies and I may have not been clear on some things, I have tried to explain the best I know how, ...
JJ you replied with -->" In the picture, there is a hose connected to the PB port, and I believe there is plug at the other end." ,---

actually the line connected to/at the PB port is the other end from going to the "Hard line" the smaller of the 2 where I cut into and installed the Quick disconnect that returns to the tractor 3 pnt under the seat... I was under the assumption this is the return line,... Not the line coming out of the top port that i'm pointing at on the control valve... the thing I am confused by is the suggestion of plugging off the port where the PB is to be removed and then using the top port as the return line. as I think has been mentioned? when the PB has ben removed this port and the top port are now 1 of the same? there for can I not cap the top off and continue to use the side port as the return line? reason being! I have what I need to cap off the top port and will have to search for a plug to plug off side port, .........
This seems to have become more difficult to explain correctly then I had thought...... please look at the quick drawing i have made and see if this explains things better, this is the way it is hooked up now,
thanks guys, I'm sure I'll understand before later than sooner

 

[J_J]

IMO, I would remove the QD's from the pump circuit, and add a relief valve across the pump.

If you want to use the system as drawn, you have to use the T port to reservoir, as this is the only way to remove fluid from the work ports.

With the PB sleeve installed, supply fluid is now blocked from going out the tank port.

The fluid leaving the PB port can continue to the back to whatever, but in this situation, it goes to the 3ph.

When you now use the FEL valve, and operate the cylinders, fluid is routed to the cylinders, and out the tank port. If you are not using the cylinders, there is no fluid gong out the tank port.

 

[kennyd]

kennyd


I think this repeating things from different people is only confusing things.

If you disagree with what I have posted, then, correct that part only.

So you want me to be quiet?

I have not disagreed with anything you wrote, I hardly even read it. I was answering the OP's question the best I could.

 

[J_J]

deepNdirt

If you remove the hose, attached to the PB sleeve, and remove the sleeve, will that same hose connect back to the PB port? If so, then connect the hose to the PB port.
Remove the tank return hose, and plug the T port.

Now the fluid will exit out the PB port, along with the work ports fluid, and flow back to the 3ph, through a QD. Put the cap back on the reservoir.

Does your FEL valve have a relief valve, if not, you need one somewhere in the pump circuit, preferably before any valve, and QD's.

This will work for you, but is not the way I would do it. I would eliminate the QD's also.

 

[deepNdirt]

deepNdirt

If you remove the hose, attached to the PB sleeve, and remove the sleeve, will that same hose connect back to the PB port? If so, then connect the hose to the PB port.
Remove the tank return hose, and plug the T port.

Now the fluid will exit out the PB port, along with the work ports fluid, and flow back to the 3ph, through a QD. Put the cap back on the reservoir.

Now I'm hearing something I was told before by one of the tech's Yes! this hose will connect directly back to the Port after removing the PB sleeve ,.....this is exactly the way one of the tractor tech men had me to connect the lines, and I did and it did in fact work although at that time the pump was cracked and not sending full power but yet enough that I could see the FEL working correctly....... how ever! the 2nd tech man desputed this way and had me to change and reconnect the PB sleeve and rout all lines as it is currently, ... now we all are on the same page
I needed someone to confirm one way or the other? .........
OK! now does anyone know why I should ( NOT! ) hook it up this way? the only answer I got from the 2nd tech person and is also the person who provide the pump was that if I do connect it without the PB and 3rd return line It will "blow the new pump and he would not warranty it", .. although I'm not sure if this person is a parts salesman or an actual tractor tech person, so i question his comment.
I coudn't see as to how it would with still a full continuous flow in the circuit, but I'm no hylraulic person,

Does your FEL valve have a relief valve, if not, you need one somewhere in the pump circuit, preferably before any valve, and QD's.

This will work for you, but is not the way I would do it. I would eliminate the QD's also.

I think the remote has a relief valve, I was explained that I could adjust this to give stronger lift power or limit the lift power according to the tractor ability to lift a load? as i said I think! this is waht I wa told this screw is for and also to relief line pressure,

JJ are you suggesting to make a solid connection? My plans are to use this tractor in lightweight landscaping etc,
and having a way to quickly connect and remove the loader, there may even be times when the loader is not necissary to bring along, I do a lot of bushhoging in wood area's thinning of undergrowth etc, and FEL would be in the way for this, is there another method of connecting the loader without using Qd's that would allow an easy removal out in the feild?...........

KENNYd--- Yes please continue to ad anything that might be helpful,
your input is very much appreciated, I think we were going around in circles
because I may not have been very clear to explain what I was told by the 2 tractor tech men, I was looking for someone to back up either one man or the others way of hooking up the lines, but instead I learn of 2 other ways to connect them