Branson 3510i PTO question

[swigginton]

I've got a simple operator question that seems to be baffling me. How do you engage the PTO? With the tractor running and the clutch depressed I pulled the PTO lever up to the 540 RPM setting and I hear loud grinding noises.

Background: We bough the tractor used a year ago and the clutch needed repair work, at the time the mechanic said I also needed a new PTO disc. I have only used it with the backhoe attached until the rim on my 9N rusted out last month. I am familiar with operating the single transmission/PTO but obviously do not want to experiment with grinding gears!

I've tried it with my shuttle shifter/gear selector in neutral with the same result as before, and this tractor won't let you startup with the clutch engaged (must safer than the 9N)

As was mentioned in another post, with the backhoe attached the PTO would spin slightly but after hooking up my bushhog it does not spin when driving around.

Thanks for any clue on what I'm missing.


-Scott

 

[JDeerekid]

I am not to familiar with the branson tractors but I will try to help. Your tractor is suppose to have independent PTO. You should be able to depress clutch and turn pto on at idle and let of clutch and should engage smoothly.
Again you should engage pto at idle not at 540 pto speed.

Do you have anything hooked to pto when engaging it that could possibly be binding?

If it is grinding without anything connected you might have internal problems.

 

[Willl]

Also make sure the clutch is fully depressed. When shifting, do it slowly.

 

[Zork]

I've got a simple operator question that seems to be baffling me. How do you engage the PTO? With the tractor running and the clutch depressed I pulled the PTO lever up to the 540 RPM setting and I hear loud grinding noises.

YOU SHOULD HAVE A TWO-STAGE CLUTCH: 1ST STAGE= GEARS/TRANS, AND 2ND (FULL DEPRESS)STAGE= PTO. ITS NORMAL FOR PTO TO CONTINUE SPINNING A LITTLE AFTER CLUTCH IS PRESSED. MAYBE THE CLUTCH NEEDS MORE ADJUSTMENT.

Background: We bough the tractor used a year ago and the clutch needed repair work, at the time the mechanic said I also needed a new PTO disc. I have only used it with the backhoe attached until the rim on my 9N rusted out last month. I am familiar with operating the single transmission/PTO but obviously do not want to experiment with grinding gears!

I've tried it with my shuttle shifter/gear selector in neutral with the same result as before, and this tractor won't let you startup with the clutch engaged (must safer than the 9N)

As was mentioned in another post, with the backhoe attached the PTO would spin slightly but after hooking up my bushhog it does not spin when driving around. NORMAL IF NOT ENGAGED IN 540/1000 RPM

Thanks for any clue on what I'm missing.


-Scott

YOU SHOULD HAVE A TWO-STAGE CLUTCH: 1ST STAGE= GEARS/TRANS, AND 2ND (FULL DEPRESS)STAGE= PTO. ITS NORMAL FOR PTO TO CONTINUE SPINNING A LITTLE AFTER CLUTCH IS PRESSED. MAYBE THE CLUTCH NEEDS MORE ADJUSTMENT.
NORMAL IF NOT ENGAGED IN 540/1000 RPM

 

[MicroPilot]

I've got a simple operator question that seems to be baffling me. How do you engage the PTO? With the tractor running and the clutch depressed I pulled the PTO lever up to the 540 RPM setting and I hear loud grinding noises.

You probably also need to adjust the clutch freeplay. It's basically a turnbuckle on the linkage. Your manual should detail how to do this adjustment.

Background: We bough the tractor used a year ago and the clutch needed repair work, at the time the mechanic said I also needed a new PTO disc....

You didn't replace this part while they had the tractor split?

 

[swigginton]

You didn't replace this part while they had the tractor split?

I did have them replace it, just didn't say it clearly!

You probably also need to adjust the clutch freeplay. It's basically a turnbuckle on the linkage. Your manual should detail how to do this adjustment.

Unfortunately we have no owners manual and the link on this site to a similar Century no longer works. I've seen the turnbuckle on the bar beside the clutch, which direction do I turn and how much?



For everyone else, I believe I had the clutch fully depressed (straight from startup) but will be sure to try it again.

 

[MicroPilot]

My 3035 owners manual states:

ADJUSTING CLUTCH PEDAL FREE TRAVEL

Proper clutch pedal freeplay is between 3/4 inch to 1-1/4 inch.

Too small a free travel can cause damage to the throwout bearing and engine (travel) clutch slippage.

Too large a free travel may cause PTO clutch not fully disengaged (PTO will not stop completely when the clutch pedal is depressed all the way down).

ADJUSTMENT
- Stop engine remove key
- Depress clutch pedal slightly by hand and measure measure free travel.
- If necessary adjust free travel on the turnbuckle located next to the clutch pedal.

I had to do this adjustment once as I had the same symptoms you describe. It wasn't a big deal. I believe all you will need is a 15 mm wrench to loosen the jam nuts, and maybe a screwdriver to help turn the turnbuckle. It should only take a couple of turns to get it back in adjustment.

...For everyone else, I believe I had the clutch fully depressed (straight from startup) but will be sure to try it again.

It won't start unless the clutch is FULLY depressed, shuttle shift is in neutral, and PTO lever is disengaged.

 

[Jenkins003]

I recently had the same problem on my Century tractor. I adjusted the turnbuckle above the clutch and it cured the problem. I ended up with about 3/4 inch freeplay before it stopped grinding.

 

[swigginton]

Where are you supposed to measure the freeplay in the clutch? Are you measuring the vertical of the turnbuckle, or the travel of the pedal?

I just went with a WAG loosening it up some (didn't work) and then tightened it until there was zero freeplay and backed off until it was at what I estimated as 3/4" from the pedal. I still hear some grinding as I begin to engage but pulling with authority it got it to engage. Is this typical or do I need to keep adjusting it until there is not a hint of grinding ever?

And WOW, I never realized how beautiful 35HP can be. I've been bushhogging on a 1939 Ford 9N which would requires multiple passes in dense green undergrowth, but not now even in thick 3' stuff. Even better was on the shorter grass it was mulching the grass about the same size as my discharge blade on my riding mower which is perfect for my lawnsweep!

Of course this now brings up two more questions:

First, on my tachometer there is an indicator for "1ST PTO 540 RPM" which is near the 2400-2600 RPM range. Because of this I was operating in Range 1 with my shifter in 4th (just a hair slower than 2nd gear on my 9N). This worked great for the 3' dense stuff, but for the shorter fields can I use the 2nd Range gears? And if so what tractor RPMs should I be aiming for?

Second, adjacent to the PTO selector there is a lever that I have no explaination for. You can see it in this picture (lever on the right with all white labels). Anyone know what this is?

Thanks again for all the suggestions, you have been a great help!

-Scott

 

[Zork]

You should measure the distance from the top or bottom of the clutch pedal to a fixed point in the line of travel. You will probably have slight grind when engaging PTO. I always AT AN IDLE shift into PTO, THEN raise throttle, then engage PTO through clutch.
The lever looks like the 4 wheel drive (front end) engagement lever.
A pedal to the far REAR right will be you rear differential LOCK to engage both left and right REAR axles to POSITIVE traction (used if you get stuck and/or one rear wheel is spinning.
You can operate the PTO in any of the speeds 540/1000 at specified RPM *****IF***** the attachment is rated for it, DO NOT OPERATE ATTACHMENTS DESIGNED FOR 540 RPM AT THE 1000 RPM RATE. The 1000 rate will fall into the stated RPM range. If your tractor isn't lugging and the grass is cutting fine, cut at a comfortable (SAFE) speed for the surroundings, grass, and terrain. Hope this helps.

 

[DavesTractor]

If you have a "i" model, then you do not have a two stage clutch. The "i" model uses a simple single stage clutch for travel, and it should be adjusted with about 3/4 to 7/8 inch freeplay. The PTO is operated by a set of wet clutches, engaged by an electric switch that tells a hydraulic valve to put about 225psi to the clutch packs.

If you have the old style two-stage clutch and you can not adjust out the PTO grind while still leaving adequate free play, then the tractor needs to be split as the clutch fingers were not adjusted right before the clutch was installed. There is a precise adjustment that must be made.

By the way, all tractor owners should check the free play occasionally. If it goes away, your clutch will be slipping some in hard use, which causes it to overheat and fail prematurely.

 

[swigginton]

If you have a "i" model, then you do not have a two stage clutch. The "i" model uses a simple single stage clutch for travel, and it should be adjusted with about 3/4 to 7/8 inch freeplay. The PTO is operated by a set of wet clutches, engaged by an electric switch that tells a hydraulic valve to put about 225psi to the clutch packs.

The markings on the hood indicate it is an i-model and the original owner indicated it was a 2003 or 2004 model. Is some grind acceptable in this configuration?

You can operate the PTO in any of the speeds 540/1000 at specified RPM *****IF***** the attachment is rated for it, DO NOT OPERATE ATTACHMENTS DESIGNED FOR 540 RPM AT THE 1000 RPM RATE. The 1000 rate will fall into the stated RPM range. If your tractor isn't lugging and the grass is cutting fine, cut at a comfortable (SAFE) speed for the surroundings, grass, and terrain. Hope this helps.

To reword my questions along your lines of thinking:

If I am in 2nd gear how do I ensure I operate the PTO at an adequate speed? Assuming a decrease in torque in 2nd gear, does this result in a higher/lower PTO RPM vs in 1st? Should I treat it like my Ford and just "feel" for when it is turning adequately without bogging down? And if it does bog down should I drop gear or increase throttle to maintaining desired speed?


Again my thanks for the many responses, the one thing I want to avoid is a trip to the shop due to operator error!

 

[JDeerekid]

The markings on the hood indicate it is an i-model and the original owner indicated it was a 2003 or 2004 model. Is some grind acceptable in this configuration?



To reword my questions along your lines of thinking:

If I am in 2nd gear how do I ensure I operate the PTO at an adequate speed? Assuming a decrease in torque in 2nd gear, does this result in a higher/lower PTO RPM vs in 1st? Should I treat it like my Ford and just "feel" for when it is turning adequately without bogging down? And if it does bog down should I drop gear or increase throttle to maintaining desired speed?

Also if it is still grinding even with the clutch adjusted I would have it checked out. I should not grind when engaging pto.


Again my thanks for the many responses, the one thing I want to avoid is a trip to the shop due to operator error!

Most tractors can run anywhere from 1800rmps to 2600rpms to reach 540PTO speed. Usually with my 43 horse (approx 38 pto horse) I can run a 6ft bush hog in 3rd low. If it starts bogging it is easier to down shift and keep going then increasing throttle. I run at about 2000rpms (on my tractor 540 is at 2300rpms I think).

 

[Zork]

The markings on the hood indicate it is an i-model and the original owner indicated it was a 2003 or 2004 model. Is some grind acceptable in this configuration?
To reword my questions along your lines of thinking:
If I am in 2nd gear how do I ensure I operate the PTO at an adequate speed? Assuming a decrease in torque in 2nd gear, does this result in a higher/lower PTO RPM vs in 1st? Should I treat it like my Ford and just "feel" for when it is turning adequately without bogging down? And if it does bog down should I drop gear or increase throttle to maintaining desired speed?
Again my thanks for the many responses, the one thing I want to avoid is a trip to the shop due to operator error!

***THIS IS JUST MY OPINION, AND IF AT ANY TIME YOU ARE NOT FAMILIAR WITH OR KNOW HOW TO COMFORTABLY OPERATE YOUR TRACTOR, YOU SHOULD GET OTHER ADVICE TO PREVENT INJURY TO YOURSELF, BYSTANDERS OR PROPERTY****.
If I am in 2nd gear how do I ensure I operate the PTO at an adequate speed? WATCH YOUR RPMS.....Assuming a decrease in torque in 2nd gear, does this result in a higher/lower PTO RPM vs in 1st? WILL PROBABLY RESULT IN LOWER RPMS. IF EVERYTHING IS FINE (NOT SLIPPING/BROKEN) IN THE DRIVE TRAIN/PTO IT WILL BE PROPORTIONATE TO THE GEAR THAT YOU ARE IN (1 TO 1 SO TO SPEAK).
1ST GEAR WILL PUT LESS STRAIN ON THE ENGINE VERSUS 2ND OR 4TH DOING A GIVEN TASK AND WILL CAUSE LESS BOGGING.

Should I treat it like my Ford and just "feel" for when it is turning adequately without bogging down? YES, IF IN DOUBT ABOUT DAMAGING YOUR TRACTOR ALWAYS STOP, OR GO TO A LOWER GEAR. YOU WILL HEAR AND SEE THE KIND OF LOAD YOU ARE PUTTING ON THE TRACTOR/ OR SEE THE QUALITY OF FINISH YOU ARE PRODUCING.
And if it does bog down should I drop gear or increase throttle to maintaining desired speed? SPEED? DO YOU MEAN RPM? IF RPM YES TO THE RECOMMENDED RPMS. YOU DON'T WANT TO BLOW YOUR ENGINE.

Personally, I run my rig at a lower RPM (generally) except for heavy cutting or work. My lawn, I run about 1900 RPM with sharp blades and use my foot throttle to modulate to about 2500 before I come into thicker grass. If I need to shift with the PTO running I depress half clutch. I also use my foot throttle for 90% of my work (except mowing, and 3pt earth breaking) so that I can AUTOMATICALLY throttle down to shift (like a car) this will put less wear on throw-out bearings and clutch in general.
Hope this helps.

 

[MicroPilot]

I believe the 8N uses a transmission powered PTO. With this type of PTO the PTO speed is directly proportional to ground speed.

His 3510i has a live PTO. This PTO only needs to be engaged and the engine brought to the proper RPM speed as marked on the dash (2600 rpm). No forward motion is required for the PTO to turn.

Here's a recent discussion of Transmission driven VS. Live PTO's

http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/...dvantages-live-tranny-driven.html#post1370542

 

[Zork]

I believe the 8N uses a transmission powered PTO. With this type of PTO the PTO speed is directly proportional to ground speed.

His 3510i has a live PTO. This PTO only needs to be engaged and the engine brought to the proper RPM speed as marked on the dash (2600 rpm). No forward motion is required for the PTO to turn.

Here's a recent discussion of Transmission driven VS. Live PTO's

http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/...dvantages-live-tranny-driven.html#post1370542

Thats true; however, as you are mowing and the load substantially increases there is opportunity to decrease both engine and cutting speed if the 35HP is taxed beyond its design parameters. Therefore, cutting speed (PTO RPM) will decrease regardless of what kind of PTO you have (live/mechanical or hydraulic).

 

[swigginton]

Thanks again to everyone for the advise on adjusting the clutch, it feels to be in a good spot now with just a slight hint of grinding (and sometimes not at all, gotta remember to keep that throttle down tho!).

Unfortunately once you fix one thing another decides to act up...

Last night my plan was going to go cutting in 2nd range feeling for good gear/RPM ratio for different thickness undergrowth. While shifting with a half-depressed cluth my right-handed shifter all of a sudden wouldn't budge. In the past my left-hand shift would give me a bit of resistance but jiggling it a couple times would let it loose. This did not work for my right-handed shifter. I tried jiggling it and forcing it in all possible directions with clutch half-depressed, fully-depressed, enginge on and off, PTO engaged and disabled, ran it for awhile then tried it all again. Nothing worked.

Any ideas?


And yes, my 9N has a single transmission so you have to release the clutch to operate the PTO/hydraulics (which is a major pain when you want to raise the bushhog without it cutting)

Thanks again, y'all have been a great help.

-Scott

 

[MicroPilot]

Has some debris got caught in the shifter linkage?

 

[swigginton]

Has some debris got caught in the shifter linkage?

Where should I check this? I took the pulled up the rubber around the shifter to have a look and didn't see anything jump out at me (tho this was just around dusk so lighting was not ideal)

 

[MicroPilot]

Under the right side fender behind the panel inside the wheel well. You should be able to see in there fairly easily and see if there are any sticks or weeds jamming things up.