TC33D wont start

[sherpa]

It is a 2004 TC33D with less than 300 hours.
Here are the systems:

Used the tractor Monday mowing using rear PTO no problems.
Tried to start it Tuesday morning and it would not do anything.
Checked to make sure all the safety switch levers are in place, and all seem to be ok.
Went back later Tuesday afternoon and it started right up.
Went back today and now it wont start.
The starter doesn稚 engage.
I just hear clicking buzzing sounds under dash.
The lights dim like a short or dead battery.
Checked the battery, has 12.5 volts.
Tried to start with just battery power with a jumper cable at the starter, no luck. Starter did not engage.
Checked power at starter while trying to start only 8 volts.
Pulled the panels off sides and looked at the relays.
The 3 relays were all the same so I switched them around.
Still wont start, just buzzing at the relays.
The lights are dim on the 3 dash lights now.
Headlights are dim when turned on now.
Sometimes the flashers won稚 even flash.
Took the key switch out and checked it with meter seemed ok.

I tought it may be in the key switch?
Is the key switch a weakness or has that been a problem area?

I did read some other starting problems on the forum and plan to look at the safety switches again and try some more with the relays tomorrow.

I did a check on the fuses on the right side but did not remove them.
Are there any other fuses to check and where?

Any suggestions?

sherpa

 

[sherpa]

I also need to know which fuse is what?
I have read where people talk about fuse # 2 and fuses # 5.
Are we talking about the fuses on the right side just to the front of the relays? If so which which is number 2 and number 5?
I would assume number 1 would be at the top and just count down?
sherpa

 

[dqdave1]

# 2 fuse is for class III models; yours is a class II. I think the key to your problem is voltage drop. You say it only has 8 volts at the starter. I don't think much will happen with 8 volts. Have battery checked. Clean all terminals. This includes ground wire at battery and at frame mount. Make sure battery cable is clean at solenoid. You do have a main fuse in a holder that is just behind the starter by firewall.

 

[sherpa]

I actually put another battery on the chassis and hooked it up with no difference.

I cleaned the battery cables and checked the ground on the frame, all is good.

The solenoid is on top of the starter, right?
I checked it, the wire was loose but not bad loose.
Maybe the loose cable on the solenoid blew a relay or fuse?

I plan to check all the fuses, relays and safety switches again this morning.
How do you check a relay anyway? Just switch them around maybe?

Anything else?

Can't I take a jumper cable from the pos side of the battery straight to the starter solenoid and make it turnover the engine, no matter what is wrong?

Sherpa

 

[thclimer]

Not sure if you have had a chance to read this posting I made a while ago:

http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/nh-owning-operating/109372-tc33d-glow-plug-problem-fixed.html

You could have many problems going on, low battery, intermittent bad relay, poor connections for ground and terminal blocks.

It seems to me our tractor model is overly susceptible to problems being caused by even a slightly weak battery. Unless you have had each battery that you tried load tested I would still be somewhat skeptical. If you had a starter/charger to try it might help eliminate the battery as a problem or use a battery form a vehicle running with jumper cables.

"Can't I take a jumper cable from the pos side of the battery straight to the starter solenoid and make it turnover the engine, no matter what is wrong?" I believe it should turn over as long as there is nothing wrong with the solenoid or starter.

 

[jinman]

Can't I take a jumper cable from the pos side of the battery straight to the starter solenoid and make it turnover the engine, no matter what is wrong?

Sherpa

I don't think you can do that. The connection to the starter motor is internal since the solenoid switch is on the starter. To check the motor for operation, you need to connect a jumper between the large cable coming from the battery and the small connector. This will provide voltage to the solenoid and make it engergize the starter motor. If this does not work, then you probably have a starter problem. If it does work, then you can continue to look for a relay or switch problem.

My starter is becoming erratic in its operation also. I'm pretty sure it will require some maintenance before too long. My maintenance manual shows a complete disassembly, so I'm pretty sure the starter can be repaired.

 

[sherpa]

Update!

I been at it all morning trying to figure out whats wrong.

I think it is in the glow plugs. The glow plug light will not come on at all now.

I hooked up another battery with more voltage, 12.65 volts

I use jumper wires and by pass the key switch and get the same results.

Here is what is happening at this time:

I have 12.6 volts in the system sitting without switch on.
I turn the switch to the on possition only.
The voltage to the system drops to 4,5, or 6 volts.
The glow plug light will not burn at all.
The oil and battery lights are very dim.
The voltage starts increasing slowly, the lights get brighter.
After about 15 seconds, the voltage is up to 12 volts and the lights are normal bright.
Then after a few seconds it loses the voltage back down again.

As soon as the voltage gets to 12 volts and I try to start the engine its back dim again

I can even turn the switch off while the voltage is back up and turn it back on and the lights are still bright for a few seconds before everything starts dimming out again. (except for the glow plug light, it dont burn at all now.

Any suggestions?
Is it a glow plug problem, if so where do I start?

sherpa

 

[sherpa]

I forgot to mention, I checked all the fuses.
I also switched all the relays around with no different effect.
sherpa

 

[thclimer]

I don't have my manual at work, and my electrical knowledge is limited, but if you believe it's your glow plugs causing the problem couldn't you just pull the glow plug relay out and eliminate them from the system? It almost sounds like to me you have a short to ground or some weak contacts somewhere. Let us know what you find.

Maybe try wiggling wires and relays when the power drops and see if it comes back up. One of my problems was an intermittent problem with the glow plug relay timer module. I finally noticed it was the cause when I touched/bumped its connector and the light for the glow plugs went out before it should have.

 

[sherpa]

if you believe it's your glow plugs causing the problem couldn't you just pull the glow plug relay out and eliminate them from the system?

I will try it. I will also try wiggling some wires around.

sherpa

 

[sherpa]

OK, I just unpluged the glow plug timer, no change, still will not start.

I wiggled all the wires, no difference.

The power still goes up and down.

Its up more than down.

I dont know what else to check.

Any suggestions?
sherpa

 

[FULLPULL]

I would check the battery cables and check the ground to the frame it could be a bad connection . I have also seen batterys with a dead short act this way.

 

[Egon]

Read Jinmans post again.

 

[thclimer]

OK, I just unpluged the glow plug timer, no change, still will not start.

There is the Glow Plug Timer Relay and the Glow Plug Relay. I believe the circuit works as follows. When you initially turn your key switch to the right it starts the Glow Plug Timer Relay which energizes the Glow Plug Relay, once it times out and you turn the switch further to the right (the spring loaded position) it also sends power to the Glow Plugs through the Glow Plug Relay and the starter. If you only removed the Glow Plug Timer Relay you did not totally eliminate the Glow Plugs from the circuit.

When you measure the voltage fluctuations is it with the key switch in the first position or in the spring loaded position?

 

[sherpa]

I don't think you can do that. The connection to the starter motor is internal since the solenoid switch is on the starter. To check the motor for operation, you need to connect a jumper between the large cable coming from the battery and the small connector. This will provide voltage to the solenoid and make it engergize the starter motor. If this does not work, then you probably have a starter problem. If it does work, then you can continue to look for a relay or switch problem.

My starter is becoming erratic in its operation also. I'm pretty sure it will require some maintenance before too long. My maintenance manual shows a complete disassembly, so I'm pretty sure the starter can be repaired.

Where is the small connector jinman is speaking of, is it exposed?

I tried a different battery and I have tried jumping it from ny running truck.

I agree, it acts like a bad ground but I cant find it?

sherpa

 

[Egon]

[My starter is becoming erratic in its operation also. I'm pretty sure it will require some maintenance before too long. My maintenance manual shows a complete disassembly, so I'm pretty sure the starter can be repaired./QUOTE]

This is the part I was referring to.

 

[sherpa]

I would like to check that starter before I take it off to make sure it is the problem. You would think a starter would last more than 4 years and 280 hours?
sherpa

 

[sherpa]

There is the Glow Plug Timer Relay and the Glow Plug Relay. I believe the circuit works as follows. When you initially turn your key switch to the right it starts the Glow Plug Timer Relay which energizes the Glow Plug Relay, once it times out and you turn the switch further to the right (the spring loaded position) it also sends power to the Glow Plugs through the Glow Plug Relay and the starter. If you only removed the Glow Plug Timer Relay you did not totally eliminate the Glow Plugs from the circuit.

When you measure the voltage fluctuations is it with the key switch in the first position or in the spring loaded position?

When I turn the key to the spring loaded position it instantly kills the voltage down to 4, 5, or 6 volts and the dash lights go very dim again like a short or bad ground or dead battery.
sherpa

 

[jinman]

I hooked up another battery with more voltage, 12.65 volts

I have 12.6 volts in the system sitting without switch on.
I turn the switch to the on possition only.
The voltage to the system drops to 4,5, or 6 volts.
The glow plug light will not burn at all.
The oil and battery lights are very dim.
The voltage starts increasing slowly, the lights get brighter.
After about 15 seconds, the voltage is up to 12 volts and the lights are normal bright.
Then after a few seconds it loses the voltage back down again.

As soon as the voltage gets to 12 volts and I try to start the engine its back dim again

I can even turn the switch off while the voltage is back up and turn it back on and the lights are still bright for a few seconds before everything starts dimming out again. (except for the glow plug light, it dont burn at all now.

Hmm... The battery swap should have eliminated the battery as a problem, so I'm not going with that theory.

The voltage fluctuation is very strange. Where are you measuring that voltage? Are you measuring at the battery terminals while all this is going on? Are you measuring at the starter (the big wire)?

This is starting to sound like a loose connection in the ground wire as Fullpull suggested or an internal break in one of the main battery cables. If you measure voltage right at the battery terminals, I'll bet it does not fluctuate like it does where you measured before.

And your starter should have two wires, one large wire that comes from the battery and a smaller wire that comes from your ignition circuit and controls the starter solenoid. On my starter it is in a boot just behind the large cable. I'm not sure if your starter is similar, but I'd bet it is.

Every time I hear of an electrical problem like this, I really wish I could be there with my trusty VOM to do some troubleshooting. This really intrigues me as much as I know it must frustrate you. I hope you find the problem soon.

 

[jinman]

[My starter is becoming erratic in its operation also. I'm pretty sure it will require some maintenance before too long. My maintenance manual shows a complete disassembly, so I'm pretty sure the starter can be repaired./QUOTE]

This is the part I was referring to.

Egon, I've been shocked at the things that New Holland says are "non-servicable items." I think I've heard of two people with starter problems that just bought new starters for around $400. That sounds excessive to me and I'll sure give repair a try before I take a big fist full of my money down to my NH dealer to buy a new starter. Heck, I'd bet a rebuild shop wouldn't charge anymore than a couple hundred bucks.