Winch: Hydraulic vs. PTO?

Garrik · Jul 30, 2020

I want to install a winch on my Kubota MX6000, to be used primarily for skidding logs. I have remote hydraulics in both the front and the rear - the front circuit, which is rated at 9.5 gpm at 2560 PSI seems plenty powerful enough to drive a fairly big hydraulic winch (certainly something in the 15,000 lb class, and probably 20,000 lb). Seems like one could build a nice winch mount for the SSQA pretty easily.

But most (many?) of the commercial skidding winches seem to be PTO winches designed to be mounted on the 3 point hitch.

Setting aside, for the moment, the question of whether mounting a winch on the hitch or the SSQA would be stronger/better/more reliable, any thoughts on hydraulic drive vs. PTO drive? Positive and/or negative points on either one? The specs for commercial products would seem to suggest that more power is available from a hydraulic winch driven by the front aux circuit than from a PTO winch given my ~55 PTO HP - but that doesn't really make any sense to me...

Thanks much!

bcp · Jul 30, 2020

A hydraulic winch may be designed as a recovery winch and be awfully slow for dragging logs. Even the PTO skidding winches are faster than PTO recovery winches.

Bruce

jeff9366 · Jul 30, 2020

Garrik said:
Seems like one could build a nice winch mount for the SSQA pretty easily.

This is a really bad idea.

Tractors are engineered to perform heavy work at the Three Point Hitch with the wide rear axle providing stability.

If you attempt to winch from the Loader you will disintegrate the Loader before long. You may hear the disintegration but probably not feel the disintegration in progress.

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Stan B · Jul 30, 2020

Garrik said:
Setting aside, for the moment, the question of whether mounting a winch on the hitch or the SSQA would be stronger/better/more reliable, any thoughts on hydraulic drive vs. PTO drive?

I too have thought a hydraulic winch would be convenient, being that it would be easy to make it movable from the front to rear. There's probably always going to be more HP available at the PTO than the hydraulic outputs just due to conversion losses, but I don't think a winch, at least for skidding purposes, would max out any available HP. So, then it just comes down to matching the hydraulic motor at your available flow with a gearbox that gets you a few tons of pulling force at a reasonable line speed.

One example is this one, which uses a capstan design. Still though, notice it digs into the ground just like the PTO ones. I think the mounting config is the primary consideration. Take this hydraulic winch for example, rated at 11,000 lbs. If the highest rating on your loader (breakout) is around 3500 lbs, that winch could exceed that by a 3x factor. Any SSQA mount would need to have some kind of setup to "dig" into the ground like the PTO skidding whiches.

I though about designing something that could bolt onto my pallet fork frame that would provide a mount for the winch, and a few cleats that would dig into the ground. The intent being to winch the logs onto the forks. Still, off axis loads are tough on FEL arms. Another option would be to mount the winch to the tractor's frame on the front, behind the FEL if there is room. Kind of like how it would be mounted on an truck. Could also fab up a compatible mount for the drawbar on the rear, and figure some kind of quick attach pins.

But to circle back to your question, I don't think the prime mover (PTO vs hydraulic) matters; the overall system does. I mean, there are hydro and gear tractors that both get the job done and is a similar distincition.

dougtrr2 · Jul 30, 2020

I think a hydraulic winch has some merit. The advantage I see with a hydraulic is being able to "feather" the pull. I like my Farmi PTO winch, but it is pretty much either engaged or not. I cringe at the thought of slipping the clutch. Maybe a logging winch clutch is different, but I just balk at slipping any clutch.

If you proceed, I would try to incorporate two features. The first would be to make the mount "dig in" to the ground like a PTO winch does. It would take a lot of stress off the tractor. The second would be to incorporate a two speeds, sort of like a log splitter. Slower for getting things broke loose and faster for the long haul.

Look forward to seeing how this project progresses.

Doug in SW IA

oosik · Jul 30, 2020

If you want to skid logs - why not get a 3-point skidder. They are designed, set up & specifically engineered to handle this situation. Unless you have the knowledge & skills - you might just be looking to build something that could be quite dangerous.

Sawyer Rob · Jul 30, 2020

Garrik said:
I want to install a winch on my Kubota MX6000, to be used primarily for skidding logs.
Thanks much!

That right there SCREAMS pto winch!

Power with either is NO problem at all, but a hydraulic winch is slooooooow and you will very soon tire waiting for it, unless you are only going to pull a log or two every once in a while.

Another thing, a pto winch anchors itself to the ground, so it's pulling against "itself", that makes it very easy on the tractor.

There are other advantages, but those two are important enough, to show that a pto winch is far superior for pulling wood out of the woodlot, over a hydraulic powered winch.

ST

Smokeydog · Jul 30, 2020

I bought a Smart grapple with a 12k industrial warn hydraulic winch, ssqa mount. Modified it fit cat 2 3pt hitch also. The company in Montana is no longer in business. Plans changed and sold it local tree trimmer that they use also daily. For winching logs you have to engage the ground. Logging winches do this with a blade. Any system to transport the logs you have hitch or grapple. Can’t pull on the winch.

Use a milemarker hydraulic two speed hydraulic winch on my truck to mainly pull trees down.

If logging you need a logging 3pt winch.

Garrik · Jul 30, 2020

jeff9366 said:
Tractors are engineered to perform heavy work at the Three Point Hitch with the wide rear axle providing stability.

If you attempt to winch from the Loader you will disintegrate the Loader before long.
]

Appreciate all of the thoughts very much.

Sorry, I should obviously have been more clear that I would build this winch assembly onto a blade as both the commercial PTO skidding winches and the commercial SSQA skidding winches do. Thus transferring the pulling force onto the ground, not the tractor. And of course in either case there would need to be a screen to protect the driver and the tractor.

Just really trying to think about power source differences between PTO and hydraulic. Either one could be mounted on the rear 3 point hitch by just running hydraulic lines back there from the front remote anyway...