Which bucket (yet again)?

toolz_not_toyz · Oct 21, 2005

Allrighty. I thought I wanted this:

1) small bucket with teeth (Markham tooth bar)
2) LM bucket
3) box blade

Now I'm thinking I should just opt for the 4n1 and skip the other stuff. I'm trying to work with a budget of course.

Here are my needs:

1) I want to dig. I am definitely getting a mini-hoe --that's one of those items you don't need to be baffled about, you just get it. I will use the mini-hoe for some trenching projects. But I also need to regrade some areas: move little hills from here to over there. We seem to have sandy soil, at least on top. In some places you sink in the stuff while trying to cut grass with a push mower (no fun). Not sure how deep the sandyness goes though. I need some type of bucket to move material.

2) I need to maintain a gravel driveway. The drive has that small aggregate that packs down really well and then gets hard. I guess it's mixed with rock dust or something else that binds it. People (couriers) seem to have a hard time going up the hill and spin their wheels halfway up and make huge ruts and holes. I was thinking box blade or small bucket with teeth for maintaining the drive. (Right now I use a shovel and rake but those incremental fixes will only last for so long and come spring I'll probably have to do much more work).

3) Our community's private road needs pot-hole patrol on a regular basis. This is very tightly packet gravel and the ongoing repairs consist of packing more gravel into the holes. I figure either the 5cu bucket or the 4n1 could do this type of work.

My concern with the 4n1 is that it might not be as strong a digging implement as the small bucket with teeth. That concern is rooted in the fact that the 5cu bucket is a complete bucket (which strengthens it) where the 4n1 is split along the bottom and sides. But then maybe the PT's light weight takes over and prevents you from digging to hard anyway so that you can't really stress either of those implements trying to shove them into packed soil?

The 5cu bucket looks teeny and folks have commented on its tiny size. Yet my understanding is that the 4n1 is not much bigger. And then if you have a 4n1 do you reallllllly need the LM bucket? Wouldn't you have to move a lot of material for it to make a huge difference? And since its a LM bucket wouldn't that material have to be something light weight: like mulch? I know some have moved gravel with the LM, but surely you would end up deforming the bottom of the bucket in relatively short order.

Wish this was easier. Problem is I'll have to ship all of the stuff to the West coast and that's not something I want to do too often!

KentT · Oct 21, 2005

IMO, given your need to maintain gravel roads, you're not going to be happy with the "grading and levelling" performance of either of the regular buckets. That is typically work done by either a boxblade or a "dozer" type blade set at an angle. I'm not sure how well the 4-n-1 would meet your needs there, especially ripping hard-packed gravel to get rid of potholes or washboards...

IMO (spending your money) you need different tools for that driveway:

1. Boxblade to rip up stuff and smooth it out. To permanently fix a pothole, you must cut down to the level of the bottom of the pothole, then spread it all back out...

2. Bucket to move stuff around with

3. Either a 6-way blade or a landscape rake that angles to do "preventative maintenance" by regularly grading the road -- though you could do it with the boxblade, these are faster and help in keeping the crown on the road...

IMO, the 4-in-1 might do all those things, but probably wouldn't do them as well. The 4-in-1 is also the same size (45") as the small rock bucket or grapple bucket, I think. The light material bucket is 48" in addition to being taller and deeper.

Whichever bucket you get, I'd recommend an aftermarket toothbar instead of the individual PT teeth. They allow you to install or remove them much easier and they dig better. The individual teeth are a pain to put on and take off, so you end up just leaving them on, or leaving them off...

Good luck with the decision. I'm sure you'll get lots of input...

stray · Oct 21, 2005

My 2 cents. What ever you do. Don't get the small bucket. The large one is great and matches the power of the PT perfect. If PT trys to talk you into it. Don't let them. Money for nothing. The mini hoe is for digging.

Now this is assuming you are getting at least the 422. Good luck and of course you will have to make up your own mind.

toolz_not_toyz · Oct 21, 2005

( Now this is assuming you are getting at least the 422.)

Guess I should mention that it will be a 425 since I want the stronger wheel motors for getting up the steep driveway. /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

stray · Oct 21, 2005

Cool. That would be my choice unless I was considering the used 425 they have listed. It being the 2003 it would have the weaker wheel motors though. And looks like no ROPs as well.

tracdoc · Oct 21, 2005

( My concern with the 4n1 is that it might not be as strong a digging implement as the small bucket with teeth. That concern is rooted in the fact that the 5cu bucket is a complete bucket (which strengthens it) where the 4n1 is split along the bottom and sides )

That would be true, were it not for the fact that the 4n1 is a considerably beefier build than the 5 or 10 cu ft buckets. The walls are almost 2x thicker. It's fabbed that way so that it can withstand the types of stress you describe.

Kent enumerated some excellent points. I would only underscore the futility of individual teeth. A toothbar is the way to go. I recently installed one on my LM bucket. It is an awesome tool now. I just used it to rip up drought hardened NC clay, and then back-dragged it smooth after liming and fertilizing for planting a winter rye/annual ryegrass mix. I followed pointers that Kent raised in another thread, and it was a very satisfying endeavor.

I agree with Stray on the small rock bucket. It's not worth the investment. The LMB with toothbar digs wonderfully, and is as durable a digger as the RB with toothbar. As long as you don't abuse the LMB by overloading it (as opposed to digging with it) it will do every task you request it to. Loading gravel in the LMB is no problem. I've loaded many a bucket of crush and run, and have not deformed it. I just don't go hog wild and fill it to the top when I'm moving that kind of material. It's just prudent care of one's tools. I can move say 7-8 cu ft with the LMB w/o problem. That's ~60% more than the RB filled to the top. It will take a couple of more trips that way, but there's no risk of deforming the LMB trying to get in the last 2-3 cu ft each trip to make it a full 10 cu ft.

Which Hamilton, VA are you located? There are at least 3? Reason I ask, is how close are you to Tazewell? You can get hands-on trial of the buckets, and also try other features of the machine, like the "float" addressed in another thread here.

Given your road maintenance tasks, you may want to consider (I know, I am adding to the quandary /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif) the snow/dirt blade with the cutter bar and caster wheel kit. It has separate hydraulic cylinder for angle adjustment, as well as independent control of blade tilt/pitch and of course raising and lowering, i.e., a 6-way dozer blade per Kent's recommendation. The blade is a bargain imho, at ~ $450, about the same as the boxblade. For me, I would have an easier time using the dozer blade for road maintenance, than the PT box blade, for the simple reason that I would find running a boxblade "backwards" (pulling it while driving in reverse and looking over my shoulder) would be awkward at best. Boxblades seem to match better behind a tractor on a 3-PH and going forward. That is strictly my personal $0.02 on that /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

With all that rambling, I would offer a consideration of the LMB with an after-market toothbar (Markham, of course, at $198 for the LMB, delivered) and the dirt blade (steel cutter bar) and possible the caster wheels to greatly help with grading chores.. The LMB w/ toothbar would make short work out of digging up the materials around the potholes and then spread out the material, while the dozer blade would do the real grading and crown contouring. Do you get snow where you will be using this on west coast? If so, the dozer blade will be a multi-tasker.

toolz_not_toyz · Oct 21, 2005

( 3. Either a 6-way blade or a landscape rake that angles to do "preventative maintenance" by regularly grading the road -- though you could do it with the boxblade, these are faster and help in keeping the crown on the road...)

Interesting. I didn't think the PT 425 was powerful enough to push a blade on a gravel road. For the main road it would just be pothole maintenance, nothing more major than that. For the drive, which is about 300 feet long, there isn't a crown issue as it slopes down quite aggressively.

Gravy · Oct 22, 2005

I have a late model 425 and the angle blade (as well as other attachments). I don't have the casters, which makes it hard to grade smoothly. I plan to make skids.

I have found that the blade is useful for moving reasonably loose material such as snow, uncompacted gravel, and fill material. In snow, taking too much in one bite generally results in a loss of traction rather than running out of power. Taking oversized bites of dirt or gravel can go either way. Once you learn it's limits, you can get a surprising amount of work done.

It's not very good at cutting down through compacted gravel. I think the entire machine just isn't massive enough to scrape 60" wide with much effect. The blade usually runs out of bite before the machine runs out of power or traction.

When trying to scrape the harder stuff, there's enough flex and slop in the blade mounting that the blade will chatter pretty badly. I've also bent the corner of the blade by snagging it on a rock outcropping.

I never really expected the blade to work as well as it does, so I'm pleased with it overall. The power tilt and angle adjustments allow me to crown the driveway and adjust slopes when grading fill much more effectively than I could possibly manage with any of my other attachments.

For the heavier cutting on the driveway, I use the 4in1. It's my favorite attachment. It's capacity is about midway between the rock bucket and the LM bucket. The ability to dig going forward or backwards helps a lot when working on the steeper slopes or tight spaces. I should probably put a toothbar on it for the harder digging.

For any really hard digging, I use the minihoe or my homemade potato digger/ripper.

If I were doing a lot of driveway work, I'd probably adapt one of the heavier 4' 3pt boxblades that have real rippers. I think PT's boxblade ripper design looks more appropriate for softer dirt.

I don't see much point in the rock bucket, other than low cost. I wouldn't mind having a LM bucket, but I'd want one around 15cf, instead of PT's 10cf, so I'll have to build my own one of these days. I'm afraid Stray's monster bucket would be a wee bit bulky for my tight spaces.

Gravy

KentT · Oct 22, 2005

Gravy,

That's some excellent feedback from "hands-on experience"...

I also agree with your assessment of PT's boxblade, though I've never used it. Having experienced how their teeth work on the HD rock bucket, I just can't see them being that useful as rippers on a boxblade.

That's one of the reasons why I put a QA plate on an aftermarket King Cutter XB 48" boxblade. I already had it and had used it with the Kubota I had, so I knew how it performed. Kind of like the aftermarket toothbars, its rippers will bite more than the tractor can pull. BTW, the aftermarket bucket toothbars actually use the cutting teeth developed for boxblade rippers -- so the comparison is appropriate -- they are just mounted differently, on different shafts, for different implements

So, rather than selling it with the Kubota, I adapted it. Sadly, I don't have pictures of it with the QA plate on it -- and it's now in TN so I can't get any pics soon... These boxblades are available at Tractor Supply and other places for around $400 -- and their 300lb weight and 48" width makes them appropriately sized for a PT-422 or PT-425. Howse also has a product line similar to King Cutters XB series -- both being targeted at sub-compacts.

Pic of King Cutter XB 48" boxblade

toolz_not_toyz · Oct 22, 2005

Thanks guys. That's excellent info. After following this forum for about two years I think I've concluded that some attachments are trendy during certain periods. Or perhaps the situation is just that everyone is getting more experience with them and forming better opinions. I had considered the blade back in May when I first posted here and it was then suggested (if I recall correctly) that the blade was really only good for snow.

Anyhow, I'm leaning towards the 4n1 then. It's definitely not as good as a grapple bucket for grapple duty; it's definitely not as good as a box blade; and I still question it's long term durabilty because I'm thinking that if there's any flex in part of the clamshell (perhaps form agressive use) it might stop if from functioning properly.

So back to the 4n1 with an aftermarket tooth bar. Anyone got an opinion as to the durability of the 4n1 vs a one-piece bucket?