Welders... Help me spend money!!

[g42guy]

I know there has been some discussion on this in the past, but I would like to bring it up again. I'm a none welder, never been around it at all. But I have a lot of ideas, so what would be a good welder for a beginner to learn and start fabricating some of my ideas. Is wire easier than stick? Can I get away with a smaller unit that does not need 220?Any ideas on the best way to learn safety and technique would be helpful as well. Thanks guys!-Guy

 

[jrlichina]

Well I'm sure you will get a lot of different views on this subject. A good AC/DC stick welder costs about $400.00 and runs off 220V. This will weld anything you want, but it will also take more pratice than a MIG welder to produce good welds. So the other option is to buy a GOOD MIG welder. Key word is GOOD meaning higher amp rating like 200 or 250 amps, these are also 220V. You will generally be disapointed with a smaller MIG unit if you need to weld heavy metals. Now a good MIG welder with a tank and cart will cost about $1,000.00. I would look at a welder purchase to be a long term investment. Buy the biggest and best one you can afford that matches the projects you have planned. Spending a grand and having it for 20 plus years makes it cheap in the long run, and you won't waste money upgrading from a smaller unit to a larger one. I have a Century 250 amp MIG and it works great. So that's my 2 cents.

 

[gerard]

I agree with the last post. To answer your question mig IS easier than stick but stick is NOT all that hard. Main problem with stick is cleaning the slag before making a second pass and vertical welds are easier with mig. If I only had one welder I would make sure it was at least 220V. I bought a new Lincoln 235 AC for under $300. AC/DC would be nice but for most mild steel applications the AC works fine. For my home use I just didn't want to spend $700-1000 and deal with the gas bottle but there are times I would have liked the MIG better. I'd consider taking a BOCES course first - well worth the $220 cost to use all the different types and get some real life experience.

 

[EdKing]

A wire welder is easier to learn. If you only plan on welding small stuff (1/4 inch or thinner) a 110v wire welder would do fine. I started out with a 110v wire welder, then later, when I wanted to weld heavier stuff, I got a stick welder. I still use the wire welder for the lighter stuff, as it is much easier to use, and use the stick welder for the heavier stuff. I paid about $600 total for both units. As far as safety and technique, check around and enroll in an adult education welding class.

 

[gmason]

hello, I've just started a welding class at the local tech school and I might suggest, before you go out and invest a bucket of $$ you might want to invest $100 for a class. Actually, this class is 4hours Tuesdays and Thursdays(6pm-10pm) and cost was $131 with parking fees($4). Students have to have the basic safety equipment, but the school provides the sticks, scrap steel, and the welding machines. Last night was the first class and to get everyone up to speed we learned how to setup and use a cutting torch to cut our 6"x10"x5/16" pieces.

Then how to setup our AC/DC Lincoln welders to run practice beads down the length. I went through about 12 6011 rods.

I'm hoping to get profficient in the art of welding to make use of my TIG and MIG welders.

gary

 

[gmason]

On another note of this thread, Why do the welders cost so much?? Typically they are in the 1k range, though a few are in the $300-$500. But to get a decent one it’s in the 1k-2k range. Why?? Are there that many parts in one that cost a lot? Your taking AMPs and converting them to heat. I know they weight a lot, but isn’t that the transformer? Ok you’ve got a few switches, a fan, and a meter maybe, but where’s the cost? Are there computer chips in the new big $$$ ones? Is there that much copper in one? That’s a lot of pennies /w3tcompact/icons/wink.gif.

gary

 

[jrlichina]

When you step up to a larger MIG welder the price can indeed get up there. MIG welders are more complicated machines compared to a stick welder therefore they are more expensive. A stick welder basically only has a transformer and a conditioning circuit(some have cooling fans too). Small MIGs are built pretty cheaply, look at one and you'll see what I mean. Larger MIGs have larger transformers(for higher duty cycles), additional cooling fans, heavy duty wire drives, better guns and lines, and more features like stich, spot, etc. So that's why they are more expensive. Then to add on to that tack on extra money for having a welder brand of "Miller", "Hobart", etc. Century makes a really nice 200 or 250 amp MIG for around 1K which is considerably less than it's equal from Miller, Lincoln, or Hobart. I've worked my Century hard for many years and have had no problems. So I don't think you get anything for the extra money by buying a Miller, Hobart, etc., but that's just my opinion. Don't get me wrong the other brands are great welders, they just cost more. If money is an issue get a good stick welder. They will weld anything you throw at it, they just require more pratice if you are new to welding.

 

[patrickg]

I have 2 welding machines. Both are Lincoln brand. One uses a 240 volt 50 amp circuit and will produce up to 125 amps DC +/- (straight or reverse polalrity) or up to 235 amps AC. Only moving parts besides electrons are the switches and the fan. Eventually they may wear out but I have used it off and on for 15 years or so, absolutely trouble free.

The other Lincoln is the Weld Pak 100 which runs on 120 VAC and is happier with a 20 amp circuit but works pretty good on a 15 amp circuit. I was told that it would burn up if used seriously etc. etc. It is about 7-8 yrs old and I have abused the heck out of its stated duty cycle and only changed the contact tip a few times and the plastic thingy that screws on behind the contact tip has been replaced once. These are like maybe a buck and are expected to wear out. Although equipped to use a gas cylinder I have never procurred one and always have just used flux cored wire (InnerShield). There is minimum slag and virtually never any chipping required with this flux cored wire.

I get good welds up to about 1/4 inch (as advertised but with multiple passes) and with care do pretty good with 5/16 ( mild steel). One day I will hook up some gas and change out the flexible sleeve and try my hand at stainless steel and aluminum. I failed badly trying to TIG aluminum but have had some success stick welding aluminum.

If both machines went into unrepairable meltdown, I would probably buy a larger more versitile and powerful MIG (wire feed gun type welder), either 220V or engine driven (portability has its benefits). I can run the Lincoln Weld Pak with my 6KV generator so it is portable. If I don't try for too many amps I can run the stick welder with it but for full power you would need a larger generator. So I guess a 220VAC wire feed gun (MIG) and a generator big enough to run it would be a good versitile choice since you could use the generator for emergency backup power or to light up a float for a parade or...

Separates are more versatile than a combination welder generator. Separates allow you to run the welder from the AC mains (when able) to hold down engine hours (and noise and exhause fumes). I have nothing to say bad about buying Century or any other brand X welder. I bought Lincoln on reputation and availability of the dealer network. It was like an insurance policy that helped cover my ignorance. I would say that it is extremely frustrating to have the quality and capability of a tool be the weak link in the equation. You are better off to buy good enough tools so that your skill and knowledge are the weak links. Again, this is not to imply that you can't find a quality tool in an other than top of the line brand but you have to be more careful as there are non-name-brand welders out there that have poor welding characteristics and will cause no end of frustration by seriously degrading the quality of your work.

About the cost of welders. After subtracting out the cost of liability insurance or set asides, profits at all levels of the distribution chain, and any other costs not directly chargable to the components and manufacturing, What is left for simple welders is not Rocket Science. There are some serious amounts of copper and core laminations in a welder and some serious rectifiers in a DC capable model. The switches are pretty robust as well. Fancier units like for seam tracking and plasma guiding models and on and on use a significant amount af electronics, sometimes including computer based controls.

Like with tractors, I have never heard anyone complain about having too much power available and getting the job done too well or too fast. I have certainly felt underpowered with my little 120 volt wire gun when welding up around 1/4 inch stuff. You just go slower and make an extra pass and that is good enough most of the time. Somtimes (Like Tim Taylor/Allen of "Tool Time", I just want more power).

I hope you choose wisely, Grasshopper! Talk to some professional welders who work on the size and type of materials that you expect to use and see what they recommend. Nothing is more frustrating than to try to do a good job with inadequate tools. (You can dig a ditch with a spoon, it just takes a few more passes!)

Patrick

 

[g42guy]

Wow, thanks everyone! There is alot of good info to mull through. I think I will try to find a class before buying a welder. From the info I have found on my own and that from here, I think a wire feed that plugs into a regular outlet would handle most of what I want to do. The local FleetFarm carries Both Lincoln and Century brands. I know Centure makes a 155 that is 120v and welds up to 1/4" in a single pass. The comparable size Lincoln jumps to 240v. I figure I can invest in one around this size and price range now, and if I get to welding more or need more power in the future I can aways based a upgrade on my own needs at that time.It may be a while before I make a purchase, (still trying to figure out when we will build our new house). But I will make a post when I do something. Thanks again, Guy

 

[ns_in_tex]

I bought a Century Mig wire welder M# 117-016-001 in 1991. Then purchased the gas tank, ETC. I havn't used the first full tank of gas. Just doesn't seem to do the job unless it is very light weight material I am welding. I just always go back to the old cracker box stick welder for most of my work around the farm.

If you will be welding 1/4" material, get a bigger one, or go stick. Just my opinion.