Used Value vs Age

[bvanek]

We in the Forest Service are getting billions to do forest restoration projects to reduce severe wildfires. Most will go to western and southern states because that is where the wildfires are most severe. It’s not a red/blue state issue; America has needs everywhere. Especially highways, bridges, ports and communications. If you want some actual real information about the border, PM me. I have lived my entire life in border states and my career is in land management. It’s sad how politicians have misrepresented the situation. And those hunks of steel have been rusting away for the past 20 years because politicians sold a ridiculous solution to an issue they are gutless to address with real solutions.

so, you edited your comment and offered up some other comments....IMO one giant step towards "real solutions" would to have been to honor/enforce the existing immigration laws in the first place. But then you start putting both activist and bought judges into the process and legal immigration takes a back seat to illegal immigration. Two examples of those laws are remain in the first crossed country asylum seekers and deportation when you cross illegally. So a steady progression of circumventing a reasonable system that at least had some foundation to build upon and replacing it with nonsense is where we are at today.

The wall which I suppose most don't like (except the people charged with patrolling the border and local law enforcement)ask them... was a stop-gap tool because the Hispanic cartels, China, and US drug traffickers with large amounts of support money were winning the border battle.
Politicians misrepresent everything! That's their job..... and is usually how they get elected in the first place. Statistics tell us the wall and other Trump border policies worked......and I'll agree with you that Congress has been worthless and have compromised our sovereignty and betrayed the American people.

Now I'll move on to your second point. So your in the Forest service I presume BLM (not the other BLM) I'm from Oregon land of many forests. I have friends and family in all aspects of forestry including a logger, a state park ranger, a natural resource manager for BLM (not sure of exact title) A forest management official from a private company (Longview fiber). and even a tree planting crew leader from another private company (Weyerhaeuser)......The majority of our forests are federal, then state , then private.

I'm curious about what the forest management practices are in your state? You said reforestation so I'm presuming replanting after a forest or brush fire? So I look at pre- fire management as one of the tools to lesson the impact of fires...I used to be a staunch opponent of clear cut logging, but after a particular fire in 2020 in southern Oregon I realized that without the clear cuts in the area and the roads that a logging company built was instrumental in preventing this fire from spreading to a nearby town and several other more remote homes. Why 1. there was a buffer zone of clear-cut and 2 the roads allowed ground access to areas that otherwise were inaccessible. I also later found another similar incident in the prior year where logging roads, clear-cuts and even the logging companies helping (they had heavy equipment and fire gear nearby and was able to respond early before the fire spread) So the very thing Oregon people had disdain for ended up being a positive factor for squelching a fire before it reached the out of control stage.

Oregon has always had replanting built into their budget. Of course the private companies replant for a future harvest and there may be several things that helped them with fire management/prevention 1. they plant their tress close together and no underbrush grows2 they work with locals to patrol 3 they close off their access roads during fire season 4 they are in close proximity to emergency equipment, main road immediate access well maintained secondary roads and relatively flat land.

I hope we might agree that standing on a stage and yelling Climate Change! is by no means pro-active when it comes to immediate forest management practices.....there are some reasonable suggestions out there but if you ignore them like the California governor did when Trump allocated some funds for his state fires in 2019 then I guess you will burn down your state for a cleaver rather misleading slogan.

lots of honest debate needs to happen. many fires are caused by lightening, and many careless acts of man, we had at least two known cases in Oregon that were deliberately started. Sad when people's homes are destroyed and lives are lost, not to mention wildlife..

the red-blue debate will always be a talking point. Me I'm an American so I get to pick which one best serves both me, my family, and my country....... and there is plenty of evidence to pick a side at any given point in time.....We can learn a lot from our failures. Owning up to them might get things right?

 

[jyoutz]

so, you edited your comment and offered up some other comments....IMO one giant step towards "real solutions" would to have been to honor/enforce the existing immigration laws in the first place. But then you start putting both activist and bought judges into the process and legal immigration takes a back seat to illegal immigration. Two examples of those laws are remain in the first crossed country asylum seekers and deportation when you cross illegally. So a steady progression of circumventing a reasonable system that at least had some foundation to build upon and replacing it with nonsense is where we are at today.

The wall which I suppose most don't like (except the people charged with patrolling the border and local law enforcement)ask them... was a stop-gap tool because the Hispanic cartels, China, and US drug traffickers with large amounts of support money were winning the border battle.
Politicians misrepresent everything! That's their job..... and is usually how they get elected in the first place. Statistics tell us the wall and other Trump border policies worked......and I'll agree with you that Congress has been worthless and have compromised our sovereignty and betrayed the American people.

Now I'll move on to your second point. So your in the Forest service I presume BLM (not the other BLM) I'm from Oregon land of many forests. I have friends and family in all aspects of forestry including a logger, a state park ranger, a natural resource manager for BLM (not sure of exact title) A forest management official from a private company (Longview fiber). and even a tree planting crew leader from another private company (Weyerhaeuser)......The majority of our forests are federal, then state , then private.

I'm curious about what the forest management practices are in your state? You said reforestation so I'm presuming replanting after a forest or brush fire? So I look at pre- fire management as one of the tools to lesson the impact of fires...I used to be a staunch opponent of clear cut logging, but after a particular fire in 2020 in southern Oregon I realized that without the clear cuts in the area and the roads that a logging company built was instrumental in preventing this fire from spreading to a nearby town and several other more remote homes. Why 1. there was a buffer zone of clear-cut and 2 the roads allowed ground access to areas that otherwise were inaccessible. I also later found another similar incident in the prior year where logging roads, clear-cuts and even the logging companies helping (they had heavy equipment and fire gear nearby and was able to respond early before the fire spread) So the very thing Oregon people had disdain for ended up being a positive factor for squelching a fire before it reached the out of control stage.

Oregon has always had replanting built into their budget. Of course the private companies replant for a future harvest and there may be several things that helped them with fire management/prevention 1. they plant their tress close together and no underbrush grows2 they work with locals to patrol 3 they close off their access roads during fire season 4 there is close proximity to emergency equipment,immediate access well maintained roads and relatively flat land.

I hope we might agree that standing on a stage and yelling Climate Change! is by no means pro-active when it comes to immediate forest management practices.....there are some reasonable suggestions out there but if you ignore them like the California governor did when Trump allocated some funds for his state fires in 2019 then I guess you will burn down your state for a cleaver rather misleading slogan.

lots of honest debate needs to happen. many fires are caused by lightening, and many careless acts of man, we had at least two known cases in Oregon that were deliberately started. Sad when people's homes are destroyed and lives are lost, not to mention wildlife..

the red-blue debate will always be a talking point. Me I'm an American so I get to pick which one best serves both me, my family, and my country....... and there is plenty of evidence to pick a side at any given point in time.....We can learn a lot from our failures. Owning up to them might get things right?

The illegal immigration issue is simple. They come here because US employers hire them and actually recruit them. And these employers are never prosecuted for this. So when the Border Patrol deports the illegals, the employers hire new illegal employees within a few days. All politicians of both parties know what is happening and how to stop it: prosecute the employers who hire illegals and require e-verify for hiring, not spend billions on a silly problematic iron sculpture that causes more problems than it solves. But the truth is that the business community likes things the way at they are: the agriculture, construction, and service industries have always operated by hiring illegals. And so the politicians of both parties have always used the issue for votes and propose expensive bogus solutions. Just arrest the employers who break the laws and you will see a huge reduction in illegals in the US. I have spent over 60 years living in Arizona and New Mexico and am more familiar than most people who bloviate about this issue (who typically live far from the border). I have spent summers in high school years picking farm produce along side illegals. The situation is easy to understand. But beware of solving this situation: most Americans won’t do hand labor on the farms to pick produce.

 

[jyoutz]

The illegal immigration issue is simple. They come here because US employers hire them and actually recruit them. And these employers are never prosecuted for this. So when the Border Patrol deports the illegals, the employers hire new illegal employees within a few days. All politicians of both parties know what is happening and how to stop it: prosecute the employers who hire illegals and require e-verify for hiring, not spend billions on a silly problematic iron sculpture that causes more problems than it solves. But the truth is that the business community likes things the way at they are: the agriculture, construction, and service industries have always operated by hiring illegals. And so the politicians of both parties have always used the issue for votes and propose expensive bogus solutions. Just arrest the employers who break the laws and you will see a huge reduction in illegals in the US. I have spent over 60 years living in Arizona and New Mexico and am more familiar than most people who bloviate about this issue (who typically live far from the border). I have spent summers in high school years picking farm produce along side illegals. The situation is easy to understand. But beware of solving this situation: most Americans won’t do hand labor on the farms to pick produce.

I responded to your comments about illegals; now I’ll say a few things about Forest management. I work for USFS, not BLM, so I’m not going to comment on their management. In my Southwest Region, we manage ponderosa pine and mixed conifer forests. We typically use uneven-aged management group selection cutting along with prescribed burning to restore forests to more open historical conditions that will experience surface fires, not crown fires. Over a century of fire suppression and historical logging practices have created overgrown forests with 1000 trees per acre compared to the historic 100 trees per acre. It’s a monumental task and very expensive: logging of high value trees alone will not create resilient forests. There’s a lot of small unmerchantable trees and brush that need to be removed at a very high cost, and millions of acres that need treatment. Until the stimulus bill was passed last year, we were not adequately funded to do this work at the needed scale; now we are. Exciting times and lots of work to be done. My main concern now is that we don’t have sufficient wood processing facilities and contractors to do the 20 million acres in the west that Congress has directed us to do. Once again things are going to be exciting and lots of activities are imminent.

 

[jyoutz]

The stated goals of subsidies (supposedly) were to stimulate demand for wind and solar technology in the hope that their high cost would decline. As we see today that is no longer viable as the technology has plateaued and therefore these larger companies can enter the market as is (but these large companies are diverse in other sources so they eliminate competition and thus control pricing to the consumer. So now they can settle in and reap their harvest at the expense of the ratepayers.... sound familiar?

I live in the Northwest. After WWII the federal government went headlong into producing and promoting cheap hydroelectric power throughout the nation. It was particularly rewarding in states (like mine) that had this abundant renewable natural resource.....but what happened? Corporate America took over, much like what might be happening in your area with wind and solar. Costs started soaring because of two major factors; They found out they could sell (initially surplus electricity) to California at a 50% higher rate and # 2 the environmentalists started going after the smaller hydro plants for the usual reasons and all of a sudden supply and demand became the front-runner for profitability.

So in your area maybe wind and solar can be competitive? But lets be clear wind and solar do not provide the same value to the grid as conventional electricity sources. In addition to not operating on demand (a subsidiary but tangible issue with power grids going down.), both wind and solar provide little of capacity value that is needed to maintain long-term reliability to the grid. Instead they rely on other electricity generators (that dreaded fossil fuel, natural gas in your case),to provide the services they cannot.....thus imposing those costs on other generators and the structure of the grid itself. The wind and solar facilities do not pay theses costs, ratepayers do. The Texas heat wave of 2019 provides a good example of how renewables can distort electricity grid operations.

So my simple reference is aimed at the very idea of replacing fossil fuels and subsequently blowing up our economy in the process. It's not "about time" for fossil fuels to be eliminated when you don't have replacements with the infrastructure to back it up. Political agendas always put the cart before the horse and ignorantly use this to disingenuously promote man as the culprit to changing climates. ........hydroelectric power invested in it's infrastructure without compromising the welfare of it's citizens...why? because we had fossil fuels in place to hold us over. Then we were able to use cheap hydroelectric power to vault into the era of opportunity and prosperity for any citizen who was willing to participate.

So you promote wind and solar....and who do you think will profit from that? Well the bottom line points to China both indirectly (from big tech) and directly. Solar panels made in China, wind turbans made mostly from parts and steel alloys made in China. Batteries made in China. Rare earth minerals (components of solar cells and batteries) ...all from China or sourced from Chinese investments in many third world countries...and if China takes Taiwan, computer chips..China will control our infrastructure and everything that runs them..and if they wish, because we have no protection against securing our electric grids and computers that run almost everything now, they could shut us down with a single EMP rocket. Incidentally this phony Biden "infrastructure bill' has no provision to take care of this.....and it is not that costly to permanently idiot proof this serious threat to our security.

America citizens will pay dearly if this nonsense isn't thwarted.


So one other comment to you: You have some one-sided pot shots at particular posts which are opposite views....didn't do any research so can't comment .....You seem adamant about promoting wind and solar and have pushed back rather religiously, to dominate the thread? It leads one to believe that you might be vested in something? Who do you work for? I kinda don't think you are a farmer

I didn’t say wind and solar are the total solution. My state is the second largest producer of natural gas. The coal plants have been or are scheduled for conversion to natural gas, and then wind/solar provides the remainder of the power. So far power prices have slightly declined with the current energy mix compared to 10 years ago when coal made up the major source of energy.

 

[rScotty]

The illegal immigration issue is simple. They come here because US employers hire them and actually recruit them. And these employers are never prosecuted for this. So when the Border Patrol deports the illegals, the employers hire new illegal employees within a few days. All politicians of both parties know what is happening and how to stop it: prosecute the employers who hire illegals and require e-verify for hiring, not spend billions on a silly problematic iron sculpture that causes more problems than it solves. But the truth is that the business community likes things the way at they are: the agriculture, construction, and service industries have always operated by hiring illegals. And so the politicians of both parties have always used the issue for votes and propose expensive bogus solutions. Just arrest the employers who break the laws and you will see a huge reduction in illegals in the US. I have spent over 60 years living in Arizona and New Mexico and am more familiar than most people who bloviate about this issue (who typically live far from the border). I have spent summers in high school years picking farm produce along side illegals. The situation is easy to understand. But beware of solving this situation: most Americans won’t do hand labor on the farms to pick produce.

Which employers? It's not just private industry. Do the state and local governments tacitly support illegal workers in New Mexico and Arizona? I hear you on farm labor, but truth is everyone knows about farm labor and has for decades - yet nothing has ever been done, because we need them.
In the western US it would be just as interesting to look at local gov't construction projects, road buildng, street maintenance, and municipal upkeep.

I suspect that most local governments do check to see if a worker has documentation, but they don't check too closely. After all, they need someone who will do the work.
And who in their right mind wants to arrest the garbage guys, the grounds keepers, street crews, and building maintenance? Or the guy who picks up trash in the park?

Needing to get the work done is why politicians don't change those things. Yes, the laws don't fit the reality, but nobody wants to change either one - and for good reasons.
rScotty

 

[jyoutz]

Which employers? It's not just private industry. Do the state and local governments tacitly support illegal workers in New Mexico and Arizona? I hear you on farm labor, but truth is everyone knows about farm labor and has for decades - yet nothing has ever been done, because we need them.
In the western US it would be just as interesting to look at local gov't construction projects, road buildng, street maintenance, and municipal upkeep.

I suspect that most local governments do check to see if a worker has documentation, but they don't check too closely. After all, they need someone who will do the work.
And who in their right mind wants to arrest the garbage guys, the grounds keepers, street crews, and building maintenance? Or the guy who picks up trash in the park?

Needing to get the work done is why politicians don't change those things. Yes, the laws don't fit the reality, but nobody wants to change either one - and for good reasons.
rScotty

I’m not aware of any state and local government hires of illegals. Too much background checking is required nowadays for those jobs.

 

[bvanek]

In reply to JYOUTZ (missed the reply button)

it's great to get input as I like to see real pro-active solutions and continue to wonder whether government is actually working for it's people or simply working for control of a platform. In most cases the later is true... hence your "monumental task" became someone or something beyond your control that left you few options? You say a century of neglect/mismanagement, so I am wondering why after a century there has been such little progress? Seems we should be seeing something tangible by now, but were seeing exactly the opposite. Someone sitting in an office saying what needs to be done but at this point, little resolve. Not enough to keep it out of crisis anyway. So the "smart" people in charge might be part of the problem and we will keep throwing money thier way in spite of? Excuse me if I don't buy the "exciting lots of activities are imminent" slogan. it's simply an advertisement to me.

We have an entirely different forest and woodland situation here in Oregon. Logging/tree harvesting is an intricate part of our forest management. We have 18 field offices USFS alone. The terrain is different, the product and ecosystem as well. I read the regional story-line for the SW USFS and yes it says almost identical to what you have said.....So here we are.

In your own words you "opt out" of other issues like worker shortages and processing facilities. These are governmental issues (the generals of USFS have the money/power but no soldiers on the front lines) So another cart before the horse tactic that stalls and therefore gives you an out... an out with money that is rapidly losing it's value. You will never have enough! and lets be clear, government officials, with the help of their big corporate partners, closed down all these lumber and paper mills. Small operations went first then corporate conglomerates took over (buyouts with zero regard for American blue collar jobs) but are perfectly fine with shipping our resources and the processing out of the country. Jobs lost, interest lost, work incentives buried with handouts, education failures..... all adds up to? Well I'll let you do the math.

movin on; ......I find it rather arrogant that you repeatedly ignore "other solutions or concerns" and replace it with your singular "much more qualified" version. ....but kind of scripted if you will.....nothing personal but you need to be challenged. The decades of talk from taxpayer funded "projects" are on you now. Excuse me if i say that IMO your political bias is evident and is probably not a good thing when maintaining a reasonable balance to properly solving a situation. The best solutions are generally arrived as a compromise of sorts in the middle but you folks have a history of getting out on that far left wing and staying there. Your anthropogenic climate change hoax is a prime example. Division politically hinders honest resolve. Deep concerns there with today's governments.
This might be the reason you have "this monumental task" and why you need extra funding from the taxpayers to bail you out? so you see throwing good money at solutions that may be forthcoming (and no past resolve) leaves me very skeptical. Listening is a major part of communication and subsequent knowledge. Government has this history "knowing what's best for us" without any accountability for themselves.

Letting natural fires burn became increasingly unpopular because you have more people occupying these areas and also we have set aside many natural reserves/habitat that we dutifully respect and wish to preserve...So a balance must be struck, yet, you are describing something that is "monumental" and you need big bucks to fix it. So why did you let it get so bad? It's much easier to clean the floor daily than wait several weeks and then have to buy heavy expensive cleaners and solvents, on your knees with a scour pad.......

and your disdain for a wall?....i get the "feeling" but i also get your hate for Trump and in this case some pro-active solutions as opposed to having nothing at all? Just saying; you don't care for it even though more qualified front line people doing the ground work do? Seems this might pose itself as a division by class?. You give people a job to do and yet deny them the tools they need to do it. What you provide for them is a blind eye on today's open border and how politics has no interest in enforcing our immigration laws.....Well as much as you hate him. Trump is not a politician,(now that's a breath of fresh air) He got things done and when hes' gone were back to 50 years of political pandering=wide open border. So I guess I'm not surprised to hear all the empty words ....been hearing the same rhetoric for decades...."I have THE answer so shut up!" Yet who do you elect to fix it?....political, power hungry, all too controlling ruling class elitists .......simply rings hollow to me.

Somehow you think this is your border?
I grew up in Hood River Valley (Oregon)= fruit farming and timber. I also worked along side migrant workers....the fruit farmers, whom most were members of a co-operative, owned all their processing, packing, and storage facilities. They provided shelter and other necessary resources for the immigrant farm workers and their families, transportation to and from the border. It was "allowed" with certain conditions but still not necessarily legal. Most were green card holders but families were large and not all documented. I guess that's why they called it " friendly cooperation with the government." The farmers simply didn't have the resources to check, so they didn't. This was done for the welfare of our country (food) and gave the farmers a better chance at survival/making a profit. Then corporate America came along and busted this wide open......( neglected anti-trust laws/corporate buyouts, power and greed) So not an easy fix especially when you have this complete open border that we have today. Solution: elect outsiders that can't be bought. A wise choice even when you may not like (his) tactics....Get er done!

 

[bvanek]

I didn’t say wind and solar are the total solution. My state is the second largest producer of natural gas. The coal plants have been or are scheduled for conversion to natural gas, and then wind/solar provides the remainder of the power. So far power prices have slightly declined with the current energy mix compared to 10 years ago when coal made up the major source of energy.

I didn’t say wind and solar are the total solution. My state is the second largest producer of natural gas. The coal plants have been or are scheduled for conversion to natural gas, and then wind/solar provides the remainder of the power. So far power prices have slightly declined with the current energy mix compared to 10 years ago when coal made up the major source of energy.

Coal plants were overwhelmed with regulatory compliance. They made major improvements over air quality in the last 3 decades but as always these costs get passed on to the consumer. With almost zero tax breaks and public opinion turned against them they were doomed.....Natural gas (a fossil fuel) is more efficient and cleaner overall so it should stand the test of time. The price of energy will continue to go up and wind and solar will be the main culprit. Just look at Germany. Their energy costs are through the roof because they put environmental eggs into wind and solar energy. They now are dependent on Russia to supply much cheaper fossil fuel energy ..Pretty strange bedfellows that will hold them hostage at any given point. The bottom line for the USA; energy independence.....simple words but this did happen without compromising air quality. Fossil fuels are today's answer and our resources for this are plentiful. Nuclear power could probably fill in a lot of gaps (public dissent)....but I would choose fossil fuel over that anyway. We have the infrastructure in place and pipelines (shut down by Biden) are air quality friendly and keep energy sources close at hand......just need to secure the grids which have been stupidly neglected.

 

[aczlan]

The illegal immigration issue is simple. They come here because US employers hire them and actually recruit them. And these employers are never prosecuted for this. So when the Border Patrol deports the illegals, the employers hire new illegal employees within a few days. All politicians of both parties know what is happening and how to stop it: prosecute the employers who hire illegals and require e-verify for hiring, not spend billions on a silly problematic iron sculpture that causes more problems than it solves. But the truth is that the business community likes things the way at they are: the agriculture, construction, and service industries have always operated by hiring illegals. And so the politicians of both parties have always used the issue for votes and propose expensive bogus solutions. Just arrest the employers who break the laws and you will see a huge reduction in illegals in the US. I have spent over 60 years living in Arizona and New Mexico and am more familiar than most people who bloviate about this issue (who typically live far from the border). I have spent summers in high school years picking farm produce along side illegals. The situation is easy to understand. But beware of solving this situation: most Americans won’t do hand labor on the farms to pick produce.

One issue is that the employer is ONLY allowed to check that the paperwork "looks good" and that it passes e-verify.
Any more (ie: didn't you have a different name/card that failed last month) and they can be sued for discrimination.
That doesn't mean that there aren't cases where the employer (or someone there) is providing fake documents for a fee, but there are limits on how much an employer can look (and in this day and age with how hard it is to find help, I would be suprised if many do much beyond making sure they pass e-verify because that's all they are legally required to do).

Somehow you think this is your border?
I grew up in Hood River Valley (Oregon)= fruit farming and timber. I also worked along side migrant workers....the fruit farmers, whom most were members of a co-operative, owned all their processing, packing, and storage facilities. They provided shelter and other necessary resources for the immigrant farm workers and their families, transportation to and from the border. It was "allowed" with certain conditions but still not necessarily legal.

Now (at least in NY), most of the people working in the orchards (or the bigger orchards at least) are here on H2A visas.
A lot more hassle for the farmer, more expensive but no worries that ICE will show up and throw your whole picking crew in jail in the middle of harvest.

Aaron Z

 

[bvanek]

Wind farms are distributed throughout the western US. I have no clue about how many birds are killed. I do know that wind farms are a significant percentage of the western power grid and that isn’t going to change. Solar manufacturers in the US have to deal with toxic manufacturing waste just like all other industries in the US. Nothing different. Same clean air and water acts that all manufacturers must comply with. The spotted owl situation (Mexican and Northern) has been dealt with. We still have most of the forested acres to manage and the protected owl habitats really are a minor portion of the landscape. For example, in my area, 15% of pine/oak forest must be managed for Mexican Spotted owl habitat, leaving 85% of the acres that can be managed for other priorities. I’m stating the current situation without my personal preferences; it is what it is. We are all entitled to our own opinions, but not our own facts.

We have the land mass I'll give you that....but as the norm, government exploitation has the power and the incentives (taxpayers money) to push what is looking more and more like an agenda. At what cost? both monetarily and environmentally. These turbines need massive foundations, rely on China for almost all their components and the efficiency is yet to be determined when all the sums are totaled. Promotion has it's gimmicks and investments will always need that bottom line. So do You put in more windmills to keep up with demand? Of course you do and we have been putting these in by the thousands each year while our country is drowning in a 30 trillion national debt and record high inflation that will only add to that debt.
Some farmers/property owners do get to lease their land for windmills, maybe on land that wouldn't be productive otherwise, but these are large landowners. Middle class working people who's taxpayers dollars are essential (for government) want to see this in their electricity rates..... and they keep going up and will keep going up as long as we promote this green energy hoax. My rates are going up because of windmills and solar .....given the fact that they continue to shut down hydroelectric sources that once provided cheap electrical power to the pacific NW. Again already in place and green. China is buying up land in the Us that may or may not have windmills on them ? Never the less they will own us.
I suppose it's Ok to take up thousands of acres of land dotted with millions of (not always producing power) windmills.... vs say a singular natural gas pipeline under ground as a constant and self-sustaining source of power? Common sense tells you that you have an environmental friendly energy source that is cheap, dependable, and always there. Wind and solar power are supplemental only and almost entirely dependent on China for all the components. So eventual toxic waste is imported into our country for us to deal with.
We should not be beholden to China, a state (communist) controlled nation that seeks world dominance and destruction of America's economic wealth. (well lets say destruction of America's independence first)
Solution; energy independence as provided by our own natural resources.....something we can see in our bottom line not corporate America and their Chinese partners. Wind and solar expansion needs large amounts of real estate ......how much will depend on the hearts and minds of it's citizens. ill fated "progress" can be costly...ask Germany.
Do we really trust an overreaching, corporate bought, government that censures those who disagree, funds "hate America" education, doesn't provide a secure border, ignores the constitution and the rule of law, and manipulates our voting process..?