trouble-Ford 532 baler

[Niji]

At the end of last season I got a junkyard Ford 532 square baler. It ran quite well, but with the occasional knotter foul-ups one would expect (maybe one bale in 30). It has an odd symptom I've been trying to sort out. During the knotting sequence, the needle rod at the end opposite the needles rides around on a wheel. That wheel where the rod attaches spins around and, as it returns to its rest position, pushes a spring loaded plate, passes it, which in turn snaps behind it so the rod is locked into position with the needles securely out of danger from the plunger. It's like a ratchet.

The trouble is that at least half the time at the end of the cycle, the rod at the wheel end doesn't catch behind the ratchet plate. Then, the needles and the rod smack around as I cut the PTO, and usually before I can get things stopped the rod has finally been smacked around enough that it has popped into position.

Before I even started this year, with baler empty, a spun the knotter sequence through by hand and found it was not catching. I replaced a spring, adjusted a bolt on the wheel the rod attaches to, and got it so that every time I spun it by hand it clicked perfectly in place. Now that I'm in the field, and running at speed with hay, it is about as bad as ever. Any insights into what I'm missing here?

I've luckily only broken a needle twice so far. But it is a very vulnerable situation for needles for sure.

The other trouble is that I've had trouble getting the knotters working right, now. There is no regularity to it--one knotter won't tie, then the other, then both, bill hooks won't clear, twine breaks here and there, twine twisted around stuff, and always presenting in a different way. I've hardly gotten two good bales strung together in two days, and I'm wondering if it is just related to all the crazy slapping around that happens with this needle rod wheel scenario? The needle rod trouble is so regular I can't even tell if the tying trouble would be present if the needle rod was behaving.

 

[zzvyb6]

I'd say there are 2 problems:

The billhook stripping problem is caused by the wiper arms not being close enough to the billhooks. In fact, the wiper arms should be rubbing the billhooks quite hard. This is accomplished by "modeling" them. This means bending them. Use 2 Crescent wrenches to do this easily. One to slide onto the wiper arm and the other to twist the first wrench. Otherwise you have to take out the wiper arm assembly and do it in stages.

The 2nd problem is not 100% clear to me. A picture would help. I'm looking at the NH parts diagram for the 532 and am guessing its related to the 011 section of the twine knotter base. The failure of the needle lift to lock is usually cause by insufficient clamping force on the needle brake. I don't see where a needle brake is on this machine. You might try putting a few bungy cords between the needle frame and the main case to remind them where home position is.

 

[Niji]

I'm attaching 2 photos. One (on the left) shows the needle rod/wheel in the proper resting position at about 5 o'clock. The other (right) shows where it is when incorrect, at 6 o'clock--not past the plate that is spring loaded and catches it.

I hope these help. I have been baling with the cover off so I can see easily when it misses a full rotation, although it is easy to hear it kicking about back there.

Thanks for advise on the wiper arms. I'll see if I can get in there and get that done per your suggestion. Also, I wondered if the knives can be sharpened as the twine cuts seems frayed and not clean to me. I wondered if that could contribute to the overall inefficiency of things?

Also, I wonder if you have a link for an online parts diagram?

Thanks!

 

[jimg]

What sort of condition are the knotter parts in esp the bill hooks? Is there any rust/pitting on the inside surfaces of the hooks? How about the wheels on the back side, does it have flat spots? If so Id replace the part (bill hook). Was having a similar problem last year b/c the hooks were in such poor condition.

IIRC isn't there a brake in the system you're describing? I know the knotters have one and it appears as though the parts you're talking about are run thru it. I wonder if theres enough momentum at speed to cause the problem and the brakes aren't grabbing.

 

[zzvyb6]

These pictures show that the needle brake is not tight enough. The needle brake is the 90 degree sector that is around the needle hinge shaft. There are two bolts with springs on them. These clamp 2 disk brake shoes to the disk, just like on cars. These bolts usually have lock nuts or are double nutted to keep them in place. In fact, the brake disk is still pretty rusty so its not even a player in the needle safety equation. Since this is a Deering knotter mechanism, its virtually identical to the early John Deere types. So, that being said, the John Deere operators manual advises to disconnect the needle lift link, set the needle frame to a vertical position, and adjust the brake shoe tension to deliver 17 - 22 lbs of rearward horizontal force. If you get it too tight, there's gonna be some bad noises, one from the machine and one from the operator.

I use the New Holland website. Chose North America agriculture, parts and type in you model number. All the part numbers and diagrams for standard and optional equipment are there for both Ford and New Holland machinery.

I'll bet this fixes the first issue. The billhook stripping is a wiper arm adjustment. If you remove the wiper arms, you can easily sharpen or replace the cutoff knives. New ones will come with bolts instead of rivets. Grind off the rivets, sharpen them and reinstall either new or sharpened parts using bolts.

BTW: looks like there is another spring in those pics that needs to be changed. Home Depot has them. Also check the plunger safety stop springs and free the channels in the lower bale case of chaff, crud, rust, mice, twine ends and other stuff. Then you won't have to weld the other needle. Good luck. Let's hear back on how all this works. (We expect paint to be applied, too. Its a pride thang....)

 

[Niji]

The good news is that bending the wiper on the right side did wonders for it. The other one was quite tight already. Then I sharpened both knives, and both knotters worked really well after that.

The bad news is that without tearing into the needle drive mechanism I tried to push on in the field and get the final 50 bales or so made and in the barn since family is coming in for the weekend and rain is forecast for Sunday--and the needle rod failed to make its full revolution several times and finally broke a needle at 6:30 pm on Friday going in to a holiday weekend. Not sure what my chances are to get my regular welder, or anyone else, to fix the needle in the morning. I've had my eye out for a spare all winter but never found one. I was looking just this week at the 14 and 24 Ts and wondered if my needles are interchangeable with them? Perhaps one of you know?

Anyway, I was able to access the exploded view diagram for this machine online. I was thinking from what zzvyb6 said that the wheel where the rod attaches would have something like brake shoes on the inside, but I'm not seeing that. I think I may just have to re-read your post carefully in the morning with a fresh head and cup of coffee, then match to the diagram and hopefully understand what you explained. I think if I can get that issue settled, this baler will really sing along.

Then I'll be ready to get the wire brushes and cans of paint! Gladly!

Thanks for all the help.

 

[zzvyb6]

What's the tip to clamp distance on a Ford needle? I have a 14T and a 24T needle. I can compare them to yours.

 

[Niji]

27 1/2 inches from tip to clamp as shown in the picture below--I wondered if you meant straight instead of along the arc so I snapped a photo to be sure we were on the same page.

I need to revisit the big issue. I am not seeing the "brake shoes" in the exploded view of the needle drive wheel. I did, however, notice your mention of bungee straps this morning (how did I miss that yesterday?) and since I have managed to get my needle welded this morning I plan to try and get the rest of that hay up and try strategic bungee-ing of the needle rod to get through the afternoon.

Then, I plan to tear into whatever I must to get this sorted out for real. I expect I need to take off the large castle nut on the end of the shaft and remove the needle rod and the wheel to get to what is behind there. It seems to be just a small spring and pawl, which I don't think can be malfunctioning. I'm not seeing the lock nuts you spoke of either. Perhaps they are behind in there?

 

[zzvyb6]

The 27 1/2 inches is about the same as my 14T needles, but the 24T needle is about 29 inches and the curvature is different.

The needle brake disk is that circular slotted flat plate not 8" from the bale counter in both pictures. There are 2 bolts showing with springs on then for brake tension. I don't recall seeing this in the parts diagram but what is important is that it is right there on your baler on the needle shaft. Since there is paint and rust on the brake disk, I would guess that the brake is not even engaged. The slotted guide should shine like a car's brake rotor.

 

[zzvyb6]

OK, so they don't call it a needle brake, its referred to as a needle retarder. There is brake facing material on it. Maybe yours is all gone. Glue some sandpaper on it if that's the case.

 

[Niji]

Oh, I see the retarder and I'm with you now. I'll give that attention. I was looking in the wrong place altogether.

I had a miserable day. Broke a needle twice, once just turning things over by hand with the bale box empty of hay. I could not believe it! Took so little effort and I was being quite careful at the time. Never got that hay up either.

It sounds like the 14t needles may work then. I absolutely have to get some spares.

I'll rally again tomorrow, although with a week of rain forecast starting tonight, I seem to have some time to just tinker now for a few days.

Many thanks for clarifying the brake/retarder situation.

 

[Niji]

It's been pouring rain since I last worked on the baler, but I've got the busted needle welded up again and I'm ready to get it all running smoothly. So, I think the knotters are much improved after the wiper arm adjustment. Next, onto the needle retarder/brake. Revisiting what you said, zzvy69:

These pictures show that the needle brake is not tight enough. The needle brake is the 90 degree sector that is around the needle hinge shaft. There are two bolts with springs on them. These clamp 2 disk brake shoes to the disk, just like on cars. These bolts usually have lock nuts or are double nutted to keep them in place. In fact, the brake disk is still pretty rusty so its not even a player in the needle safety equation. Since this is a Deering knotter mechanism, its virtually identical to the early John Deere types. So, that being said, the John Deere operators manual advises to disconnect the needle lift link, set the needle frame to a vertical position, and adjust the brake shoe tension to deliver 17 - 22 lbs of rearward horizontal force. If you get it too tight, there's gonna be some bad noises, one from the machine and one from the operator.

Is the 17-22 lbs of rearward horizontal force measured by a fish scale kind of set up? I've made enough bad noises lately, so I'd like to avoid any more.

I also wanted to go over twine, and I see it has been covered before in another thread, but I might just start a new one to cover it.

 

[zzvyb6]

Yeah, the 17-22 lbs is kind of a setup level, but if you take a measurement before you make any changes you will know where you stand. When you run the baler at full rpm, empty of twine and hay, the needle dynamic motion is so swift, that they tend to bounce back into the game because of all that rotary inertia in the needle drive. The brake helps dissipate much of this. Another thing I thought of is to check the needle lift link length (say that real fast 5 times). If its too short, the return stroke is not getting them out of the bale case far enough. There is obviously plenty of unused slot in the need brake sector, based on the amount of paint I see on it. My needles are several inches out of the case. Lastly, I see there is another rod coming off of the needle drive which is not straight. Parts calls this a "headlock rod". Is it supposed to be straight? They just don't make bent rods, so I'd straighten it and figure out why its bent.

 

[slowzuki]

Without the needle brake working the needles won't stay in the home position in the field, I have to say my JD336 (same knotter almost) which has a needle protection feature broke a lot of shear bolts before fixing the brake. A bump would let the needles move which drew the blocker in front of the crank arm and ker-snap. Better than needles but still a pain.

 

[zzvyb6]

Now that I've studied your photos with both eyes open, it looks to me like the main culprit is the marginal condition of the plunger stop mechanism. Its the "bent rod" parts. The pics also show that the plunger stop engagement spring is all but failed, too. Get a new one (TSC or Home Depot/Lowes/Manards), straighten the rod, and free up the plunger stop with oil/grease and a new pin or bearing or whatever makes it stay in position and you will be back in business without the worry of a snap or a boom.

 

[Niji]

About the plunger stop--the spring is in sad shape, I'll get that replaced directly. While it looks pretty sorry, I have wire brushed the safety, used compressed air to clear it our, and hit it with PB Blaster (before starting to the field, and before the needle disaster), and it is moving freely. I will definitely get that rod straightened up. I probably don't even want to know what caused that. I'm still trying to track down a fish scale to get on the needle retarder project too....

 

[Niji]

Ack...oh, it is all starting to become evident.

I was over working on the baler, and started to figure on that needle retarder, when I started poking around the safety. That's when I realize the plunger is bent at the top driver's side (left) to the point that the safety when engaged barely even touches it. There are several cracks in the metal. And I can see one bearing or roller on the bottom that is worn out.

So, I guess I need to go right to advice on pulling the plunger so I can get it straightenned and welded and replace the rollers, and whatever else. On a quick look it seems it must come out through the bale box to the rear.

I'll be looking closely at that eploded parts view tonight, and any advice at this point is much appreciated!

 

[Niji]

Alright...I got the plunger pulled out of the baler this morning with no trouble. It was a very simple process. One roller bearing is totally shot, and it happens to be the cheapest one, and I'll have a replacement in hand tomorrow morning (I looked up the part on the NH website, and the local NAPA store cross referenced the NH number and has it coming for the same price, minus the long drive to the NH place for me, so I'm truly amazed).

The left side (if you're sitting on the tractor looking forward) of the plunger definitely took a beating from something. I noticed two things in particular, one is that a piece of metal had been welded onto the plunger in this upper left section where the safety hits it (a past injury, no doubt), and second, all the cracks, breaks, and bends appear to have long been rusted, none are fresh, so I think I must have been running this baler with the plunger in this condition since I got it. So much for my keen observation merit badge.

All the damage is isolated to the left side, mostly towards the top. The fellow who welds for me has the plunger in his shop on the bench as we speak, and will hopefully get it in order by sometime tomorrow.

I'm starting to feel like I may enter into the world of a dependable baler after all this--that could make for a good season! Plus, it's just pouring rain this week, so no stress to get it fixed and back in the field for the moment.

 

[biker4jc]

Niji I'm wondering how that baler project has developed. I've been following it and I'm hoping you're having a success story. If you have time, and are so inclined is it possible to get an update?