strange start problem

ERE · Oct 4, 2011

This is a problem I had some time back and thought I solved by replacing the 5 year old battery. Unfortunately, replacement didn't correct the problem and I'm short on ideas as to where to look. The problem is that when I turn the key, I get normal glow plug timing but when I turn the key the rest of the way to start it it clunks like the solenoid is trying to engage the motor to the flywheel, but the engine doesn't crank. If I release the key and immediately twist it full over, the engine cranks and starts. The crank sounds sort of wimpy to me, however. Voltages are good on the battery and the alternator when it is running. Battery terminals are clean and tight, the ground connection is clean and tight.

Has anyone seen this type of problem, or have any ideas for trouble shooting. So far I'm still in business, but I'm pretty worried with winter weather around the corner.

RandyT · Oct 4, 2011

sounds like the solenoid isn't pushing the pinion into the flywheel far enough to engage the starter contacts. may need to have the bendix cleaned or maybe the solenoid is getting weak.

Coyote machine · Oct 4, 2011

And though you have good voltage when running does NOT mean the battery is able to take the start amp load. Take out the battery and have it load tested. One must begin at the beginning and work forward. Then check your grounds again and if everything is OK then seek out your starter's possible issues like mentioned above.

MichiganIron · Oct 4, 2011

After the battery, terminals, etc.....check the ignition switch and relay, then proceed to the starter....

PoorMansCat · Oct 4, 2011

ERE said:
This is a problem I had some time back and thought I solved by replacing the 5 year old battery. Unfortunately, replacement didn't correct the problem and I'm short on ideas as to where to look. The problem is that when I turn the key, I get normal glow plug timing but when I turn the key the rest of the way to start it it clunks like the solenoid is trying to engage the motor to the flywheel, but the engine doesn't crank. If I release the key and immediately twist it full over, the engine cranks and starts. The crank sounds sort of wimpy to me, however. Voltages are good on the battery and the alternator when it is running. Battery terminals are clean and tight, the ground connection is clean and tight.

Has anyone seen this type of problem, or have any ideas for trouble shooting. So far I'm still in business, but I'm pretty worried with winter weather around the corner.

Several things come to mind..... If the battery (-) does not end at the starter case, I would install an auxillary (-) cable from the battery to one of the starter mounting bolts... or if the starter happens to have a battery(-) lug, terminate it there. This will eliminate the loss of a quality ground.
Second, you stated that the old battery was five years old, what about the cables??? You could have high resistance in one of the cables due to years of corrosion accumulation (inside the sleeve where its not seen) that is causing a deficiency in available amps when you call for crank.
Also, do as others have suggested, have the battery load tested. A new battery can go bad. If everything checks out, pull the starter and have it either tested, or disassembled and inspected.
One other thing, overall condition of the tractor? You arent losing any coolant are you??
Had another thought, IF you have some HEAVY DUTY jumper cables, you can connect them to a strong battery and to starter case and battery (+) and initiate a start... if the starter is ok, it oughta spin like a top..

seacap04 · Oct 4, 2011

I have the same issue on an 07 w/650 hrs. Engage starter and when a cylinder hits tdc cranking stops w/ starter drive still engaged. Release key and try again it will usually start fine. Just got the tractor and I have tried:

1 Charged battery twice a couple days apart. Each time started about 87% and charged to 100%. Even tried a booster pack.
2 Cleaned battery and starter terminals including frame ground.
3 Used jumper cables directly from battery to starter, both pos and neg.
4 cleaned all relay terminals and electrical plugs on tractor and put back together w/dielectric compound.
5 Swapped left and right relays on fire wall.
6 Removed starter and visually inspected it. Brushes, armature, and drive look good.

I see two things left to do:

1 Check out key switch terminals and the switch itself. Highly unlikely as the issue seems to be beyond the switch.
2 Rebuild or replace the starter.

I have only put about 20 hrs on the tractor. I have not "lost" coolant or have over heating issues. Hope somebody can think of something else to try to save me some bucks and get ERE to the heart of the issue.

PoorMansCat · Oct 5, 2011

seacap04 said:
I have the same issue on an 07 w/650 hrs. Engage starter and when a cylinder hits tdc cranking stops w/ starter drive still engaged. Release key and try again it will usually start fine. Just got the tractor and I have tried:

1 Charged battery twice a couple days apart. Each time started about 87% and charged to 100%. Even tried a booster pack.
2 Cleaned battery and starter terminals including frame ground.
3 Used jumper cables directly from battery to starter, both pos and neg.
4 cleaned all relay terminals and electrical plugs on tractor and put back together w/dielectric compound.
5 Swapped left and right relays on fire wall.
6 Removed starter and visually inspected it. Brushes, armature, and drive look good.

I see two things left to do:

1 Check out key switch terminals and the switch itself. Highly unlikely as the issue seems to be beyond the switch.
2 Rebuild or replace the starter.

I have only put about 20 hrs on the tractor. I have not "lost" coolant or have over heating issues. Hope somebody can think of something else to try to save me some bucks and get ERE to the heart of the issue.

hhmm.. ya know, with the fairy common occurace of Kioti tractors that seem to have this problem, it may be something as simple as a weak designed starter that once it gets a slight amount of wear, it starts having difficulties..
Is there a manufacturer tag on the starter motor itself,? Denso? Before buying one from the dealership, I would attempt to source an aftermarket..

VictorW · Oct 5, 2011

As others have mentioned and you have already begun, start at the beginning and keep checking each part.
Just because the starter spins doesn't mean it is good. Starters can get sort of "weak". They will sometimes go bad by requiring more than the normal current draw to spin over properly. You can only find this by load testing the starter. As RANDYT mentioned, this starter has contacts in the soleniod that may have corroded or been burnt. This will only allow a lesser amount of current to the starter.
If you want to jump directly to the starter, disconnect the tractor battery. Take a known full battery or even jump from you car or truck. Take the jumper cables directly to the starter of the tractor and see how fast it spins. Seacap04 did this to his but no difference. A visual inspection as he did does check some things but not the starter windings themselves. Some of the windings can go bad, which you can't see, letting current go directly to ground, and not allow the starter to achieve its full power. If you have an ohm meter (a self-powered 12volt test light will work but may not show a slight current draw) and don't mind pulling the starter apart, put one lead on the case and the other to the winding terminals in the case. Do the same thing with the armature. One lead on the starter shaft and then touch each contact on the armature where the brushes touch. There should be no current flow.

seacap04 · Oct 6, 2011

Thanks for all the info and suggestions. I did not mean to jump in on ERE's post but sounded like same issue.

I agree that the starter is probably the issue. I have not had time to do more than a visual inspection of starter. I should have caught that it had internal soleniod contacts with the soleniod pulling in the starter drive . Hopefully this weekend I'll have some time to check it out. Again thanks all.

ERE · Oct 7, 2011

I've been gone since I posted this. A lot of really good suggestions above. It will take me a while to go through them. I'll let you know what I find, when I find it. Thanks.