starting observation

[Soundguy]

First.. please no flames.. I left my asbestos underware home today - ok? This is to provoke peacefull discussion....

Now.. as most of you know.. I'm very close to purchasing an economy model.. 2wd/20hp NO ps. This has been a lingering thought for a couple years now, and is even more emphasized by the fact that one of my antiques is down for repair right now.

I read every post that pops up here. So far, since it has gotten cold ( last month or so in some areas )... Starting problems or extended start times appear to be the 'norm'.

Why are these chineese diesels harder to start that another 'x' brand diesel. As a compression engine, one would assume that they have sufficient compression to to get that air nice and hot.. they DO have glow plugs...

I know the fit finish is rough.. and some of the technology is dated.. but the basics of the diesel engine are well established. What is so different about these engines.. than say.. a kubota or NH ( jap ) engine? Less tolerances? Inferior metal / metalurgy? ( maybee.. but how does that affect starting? ).

thanks

Soundguy

 

[JerryG]

Like you Soundguy, I don't own a Chinese tractor. I do like to keep up with all make, so I read this forum always. It seems to me that it would have to do with the injectors or the pump. Can anyone say with any certainty if this is the case?

 

[RobS]

Could be any number of things and likely a combination. A chief culprit is probably the fuel injectors. More "modern" diesels have very precise injectors with tightly controlled spray patterns, droplet size etc. This all costs more money to manufacture but pays off in fuel economy and emissions. The older technology will be less precise, more variation in spray patterns, volume and droplet sizes all leading to more variation in starting/running.

You're right in that the basic concept of the engine hasn't changed in generations but the technology, precision and accuracy of manufacturing sure has /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

[greg_g]

As I believe you already realize, "starting time" for diesel engines is inversely proportional to the ambient temperature. It's just one of those universal truths. Diesels are diesels, no matter who makes them. Sit back and think about the nature of diesel ignition for a second - you're basically trying to start a fire, without a match.

That said, some do a better job in overcoming this than others. I now own - or have owned - diesels made by Renault, John Deere, Mercedes, Yanmar, Jinma, and KAMA. The JDs and Yanmar (literally one in the same) usually could be depended upon to start under most conditions. The Renault never failed, but the Mercedes won't start below 15F without plugging in the block heater. The Germans however, thought ahead - and included a block heater as standard equipment. On the Chinese front, my KAMA has no glow plugs, no Thermo-start, no aftermarket heating device of any kind. It's only been down to 16F so far this fall, but the KAMA starts every morning. Yet my former (glow plug) Jinmas on the other hand, could be relied upon NOT to start below freezing - unless I stuck a Kat's heater on the starter housing overnight.

That, by the way, is not a diesel problem. It's a starter problem, but is seemingly an isolated Jinma-only problem. Granted, those with the starter motor problem have their starting issues magnified. But I think basically, that "hard starting Jinmas" can be tracked down to pre-combustion chamber design and/or cheap fuel injectors, and an inadequate glow plug circuit.

Remember, these engines were originally designed for use by Chinese farmers, who started them with a hand crank. Remnants of the design are still found in the form of the quick drain valve on the block, and hand cranking instructions in the translated owner's manual. The practice was to bring the tractor back home after a cold day in the fields, and DRAIN THE BLOCK. In the morning, the farmer would come out with a container of hot water, and refill the cooling system. Cold weather starting was essentially factored out. For export, YangDong simply tried to engineer thermal/electric start assist into the same old engine design. I've long maintained Jinma export models were designed by accountants. This is one of the areas it shows up.

Short version, cold starting issues vary from manufacturer to manufacturer. Unfortunately - if you're limiting yourself to 20hp/2wd/no PS - I think you've pretty much painted yourself into a corner.

The good news is, you live in Florida.

//greg//

 

[MarkNHow]

I have a 284LE and it starts fine in cold weather. I live in central IA and last year was my first winter with the tractor. It would start at -5 F no problem. I have the ford starter and do use the glow plugs. It is in a garage but I don't have any type of heater for it. From the different post I read I originally thought it was a bad batch of starters.

Mark H

 

[cmperry]

Are these starting issues with the Jinma widespread or is it a problem with a few???I have a Jinma 224 (live in Maine) and when it's cold i plug my coolant/block heater in,go get a coffee and when I come out she starts right up (with 20 second glow)...am I just lucky or does the lack of heaters in some cases contribute to the starting problems???anyway..just a thought. Merry Christmas to everyone!!!!!!!! (great board!!!!!!)

 

[mark1]

I too have seen a lot of discussion about hard starting. Myself I have 2 Jinmas both are 284's Here in upstate new york it gets mighty cold.and so far for over 2 years I have absolutly no problem starting either one. I do not have any type of engine heater, they are kept inside my seperate metal garage where many swear it's colder in there than outside. I just use the glow plugs for 15-20 seconds and crank her up. I never even used the decompression levers till I learned about them during the CTOA seminar this past August. Yesterday it was -4 and they both fired right up.. I think most of the problems are that many of Jinma owners are first time owners and users and have to work through the "learning curve" /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

[johnk]

The problems I had were the starter not engaging. Since I changed starters and put a magnetic kats heater on the starter it started yesterday when it was 2 degrees and -20 chill factor. I don't think the problem was actually with the firing of the fuel as it was starter engagment. mine starts fine as long as the starter engages.

 

[Matt_A]

Soundguy,
I have the basic Farm Pro(2420 I think) and I don't have starting problems. It is two years old and I'm still on the orginal battery. I actually only used it about 6 times this summer and it sat idle all fall. I drove it back from my property last weekend and it ran fine. I cranked it up day before yesterday in 20 degree weather and it started fine.

 

[Soundguy]

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( you're basically trying to start a fire, without a match.
)</font>

Except that you are compressing an air fuel mixture beyond the flashpoint... that's the whole point of a compression engine..

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( Diesels are diesels, no matter who makes them )</font>

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( That said, some do a better job in overcoming this than others )</font>

Kinda makes the statement before that moot. If diesels are diesels no matter who makes them.. yet... some make them better than others then? /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif FWIW my 3 diesles start fine.. the nh 1920 used glow , though seemed to start without it.. 7610 starts without it.. both of those start before I can even release the key. The yanmar without using thermostart kicks on about 3rd rev...

Though not mine.. i have seen a friends diesel ford workmaster and oliver 55 need a whif of ether to start.. but I think that is a factor of low compression due to extreme age... vs. design. ( Besides.. his oliver 55 starts fine without the ether.. I've started it many times.. I don't know why he insists on using it...oh well.. he's too old to convice him otherwise... I should just buy him a can of compressed air and put a carquest ether sticker on it.. probably add a few years to the tractors life /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif .)

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( if you're limiting yourself to 20hp/2wd/no PS - I think you've pretty much painted yourself into a corner.
)</font>

I don't see how the lack or addition of power steering, or how many drive wheels there are will affect starting. I don't see how that paints me into a corner on the starting issue.

Soundguy