Sprinkler system question

lww05 · May 8, 2005

I helped my now deceased Father install a water supply system that feeds a sprinkler system years ago. It picks up water from a creek and delivers it about 500 yards uphill to a 500 gallon tank. A high pressure pump delivers water from the tank to the sprinkler system. There are 11 stations with 4 heads on each.

The valves on the first three stations usually only need cleaning at the start of the season but this year, they had to be replaced. ( I think the annual or semi-annual dissassembly and re-assembly finally got the better of them) When I cut the pvc pipe, I couldn't believe how much grime build-up was on the walls of the pipe. The build-up feels slick like grime, I guess a byproduct from clay-like material in the creek water.

I was wondering if anybody might have a recommendation on an additive or something that might keep this down or possibly a last time treatment before the systems last use before winter.

The pressure gauge was showing 90# on the first 3 stations and around 70# on the rest. I bet it is time to clean out the heads on these stations too.

RobertN · May 8, 2005

Start with a pre-filter before the valves. It is amazing what you'll find when you clean the filter...

aondre · May 9, 2005

Are you filtering the water from the creek?

Is the slime from the clay, or is it biological?

Is there debris settling in the 500 gallon tank, if so clean it out and add a filter. Arkal disc filters work great for pond/creek water.

You could try adding a mild detergent with a weak bleach solution to the 500 gallon tank to flush out the lines. That would take care of any biological slime and shouldn't hurt the grass.

_RaT_ · May 9, 2005

I'm not sure I follow you. The gauge is showing those kinds of pressures with the system operating? Those are fairly high pressures, what type of heads do you have? Impact, gear driven? Impact can handle a lot of debris, gear driven cannot. I have 2 Spears brand 100 GPM filters at my place to filter the water down to 1/32". You can get much finer filters then that, but the finer you go, the quicker they clog. The easiest way to go is with impacts, there will be no need to filter anything smaller then 1/32" in size as the impacts will pass those right through. For drip, you really need to get fine filtering and I woould suggest individaul filters at each circuit. RainBird also makes dirty water valves with "scrubbers" to operate in dirty conditions just in case your having an issue with that. Much of the crud you feel or see in the pipe can be algae related as well.

lww05 · May 9, 2005

This was Dad's sprinkler system and I wasn't around him too much back when the system was new. It would have been good to hear from him what the system pressure normally ran at. I agree that 90# is too high. I don't have the time to get over to Mom's and spend the time I'd like to there but last year, I cleaned out two heads (gear driven, btw, can't remember the brand) that were spraying less than the others. I figure I really need to get back and do more of this chore.

He never used a filter but I definetly agree with that idea. Give me a name brand and/or model or series. I don't think the crud is algea related but is about a 17 year buildup of clay material in the water. The water stays pretty cold and I have it set to run every other day.

I wish I would have known about that Rainbird valve with scrubbers before I replaced those the other day. Those sound like they would fit the bill here in this situation.

_RaT_ · May 10, 2005

Rainbird Scrubber valve

There are tons of different filters out there. Self cleaning to simple screen filters to expensive sand filters.

gsxr1100 · May 10, 2005

Rainbird /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif

Get Hunter.... much better and self cleaning ( ICV Series
).

90 PSI for inlet is on the high side, but I do not know what pipe you have etc. I have 80 PSI on my inlet and with the pressure drops etc etc., I am fine.

Just finished my back yard last week; (all Hunter baby), new controller, valves, poly pipe, blazzing saddles etc. I love the I-25 rotors. I went overkill but zones are cheap.

I had Rainbirds and in the trash it all went too much money and the quality is poor I feel. To me the complete sys is cheap to install. The time is the expensive part. My local dealer wants over $45 for one I-25 Hunter Rotor (with SS). I get them online for around $31. Local has PGP heads for $20 and I can get online for $8.XX.

The bladding saddles are the best. No tools needed for installing.

gsxr1100 · May 10, 2005

"There are 11 stations with 4 heads on each. "

What is the length of each zone? Do you know the nozzle in each rotors (gpm wise)? Do you know the OD of the pipe? I just ask since with 90 psi on the first 3 you should be able to get more then 4 heads to each zone; unless you are going hundreds of feet or the nozzles are so big (GPM) that it only allows the few heads.

Example I have 80 PSI which is about 18.1 GPM factor in pressure loses, velocity, SG of water, friction factor etc I lose about 8 PSI for my run. The length of the run is what kill the PSI... PLus the backflow device adds a lot also.

_RaT_ · May 11, 2005

Now your an expert in irrigation too! /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif Mike, oil and water don't mix. I am far to knowledgeable in this area for someone to make blanket statements as you have made about the Hunter ICV valves or I-25 rotary heads. Suffice it to say, I find flag waving for any brand to be getting very stale and thus distasteful. This is particularly true coming from folks with a limited knowledge of the products and familiarity with their uses. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

gsxr1100 · May 11, 2005

I was going to comment on your past post but you edited it. The delta in price is about $70 to $90 for a 2” inlet for Hunter to Rainbird valves. BIG DELTA here.....The rainbirds are way overpriced in my book. I had the 5000 series heads and it went into the trash. Same with the PGA from them. They were poor at best. Just speaking from past usage of them.

Out of 4 major (big) installers in my area (that I personally know through business) no one uses Rainbird around here anymore. They did in the late 90’s and now they are not used. Not many suppliers even carry them around here. I guess I am being stale here but I know what I used and what I use now.

Example: Rainbird Falcon 6504 adj rotor is like $20. An Hunter I 20 or $25 is like $6.XX cheaper and does the same thing. And the reliability of the hunter (for me) & longevity are much different.

I went very much into detail on my plan and gave to a few people and they were amazed. That is what happens when you ask an engineer to plan a sprinkler system when I incorporate fluid dynamics, design, systems & other things into it. Then again I have only design sprinklers for a few years on the side. Again $85 for a valve and what you get is cheap. Now like $250 a piece is more higher priced. That is part of owning a system. You need to think about long-term and not up front costs. I can replace every head and valve every 2 years, with my current manufacture of choice in my yard, and not even blink. I had over 18 extra hunter heads and replaced my parents old ones too.

Nope, not an expert but I have used Rainbird products in the past and now use Hunter for a reason. I never stated I was an "expert" in any field here or on any forum.

Not to be stale on closing, try these brands here for the original poster. Hunter, Rain bird, Irritrol, Toro, Watermatic and Nelson

_RaT_ · May 11, 2005

Your wrong Mike. Saying nobody uses Rainbird, even your /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif "Big 4 installers" /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif is analogous to saying no one uses Exxon. I don't buy your arguments or your contradictive costs. Go back and read them. You paid more for your I-25's then I paid for Rainbird Falcons which in my opinion does indeed have a much better water curtain, fewer parts and larger gears resulting in less clogging.

When did you ever use a non potable irrigation valve. I suspect you never have.

Fluid dynamics, you think you need some fancy fluid dynamics background to do irrigation layout. I assure you, you are taking your engineering far to serious. Get a Rainbird or Hunter irrigation book, look at the charts based on pipe size, length etc. Your valve size is based on GPM. To use a 2" valve on a circuit to low of flow does not work. It's all in the book with lots of charts.

<font color="blue"> Nope, not an expert but I have used Rainbird products in the past and now use Hunter for a reason. I never stated I was an "expert" in any field here or on any forum.
</font>
Mike, I suspect there are plenty of us here that would say your attitude reflects on us far differently then you perceive.

Just trying to help clear up the usual trail of confusion Mike leaves. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

gsxr1100 · May 11, 2005

Again, in my area (since I live here) in western MA the large ones do not use them. I know 5 close friends that have large yards and not one has rainbirds and they all used the large contractors in this area. I had the same people install a sys on my parents yard 7-years ago. I can show you the repair bill from the wonderful rainbirds "fountain heads". I had the same issues with rainbirds. They were as bad as toro in my eyes.

I made a mistake here, the I-20 are around $12 and the I-25 are around $20. The rainbird also does not have the flow stop which is nice a feature.

I have never had a clogging in 6-years, ever. I know the charts and they get you there in a general idea. That are not for close numbers. I use the “fancy fluid dynamics” background since the charts are nice but I can take 5 extra minutes and figure out the real numbers and what I really have. Charts are good for people that want to look up the numbers, take the charts away and the people are clueless. I can figure out the data long before you need 5 charts, books etc.

I guess you are correct. Use Rainbird but I did and it all went into the trash. I wish you said something I would have given all to you. I got very tired on also fixing the rotors from h_e_l_l and the leaky valves. Yes, there were junk in my application. It was also weird that the same installers do not use rainbirds anymore and all went to Hunter..weird...I guess the installers and business are all wrong here. ON the flip side the rainbirds were great for extra $$ for fixing them.

The Rainbird falcons have a radius of 65 ft and I-25 are 71 ft. Rainbird Precip rates are 1.14 inches per hour & I-25’s are 1.39 per hour or high speed at 1.59 per hour. Rainbird max GPM is 21.9 and Hunters are 31.5 GPM.

Plus on the curtain on the Rainbird is nice but you still need head to head coverage. Parts are usless since you just buy new ones when the times comes. The parts are not even worth the time to fix. My time is worth more then a new rotor.

Hunter I-25 have 5 year warranty. If anything goes wrong you get another one free. After 5 years, if anything goes wrong, they are so cheap to replace why bother with fixing them.

The rainbird valves are again way overpriced. The rainbird rotors are a toss up I guess. I can buy the heads so cheap it is not even an issue. I do like the flo feature since I can mess with the head very easy since I am always adding landscaping to ever changing yard. Plus the nozzles take about 5 seconds to change.

To close, follow Rats advice on this topic since he is a sprinkler expert here and I am not even close to his level of expertise on this brainteaser topic. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

_RaT_ · May 11, 2005

Mike you don't seem to understand, I use both brands but do not with the stroke of a key condem the entire line of products from either maker. I know you can't help do this be it resentful remarks about Ford trucks, American cars, motorcylces, oil and now irrigation brands. It would seem anyone who needs to behave this way is either incredibly insecure or the epitome of dogmatic.

_RaT_ · May 11, 2005

Lww05, back to your issue, I would suggest that if you are having clogging problems down the road, you consider going to impact. I have various heads at my place from rotors to impacts. As much as I wish I could go rotor, I pretty much use all impact save for about 10 large rotors that still need cleaning now and then even with a set of 1/32" filters. With about 120 sprinklers total, I keep busy cleaning the filters but it gets better each year. My pressure is 120 PSI static but I try to match as best one can on a irrigation party line the pressure down to about 70 PSI. The beauty of impacts is they handle low pressure much better then rotors. The down side is they generally need more attention and if are the pop up type, have quite limited height. I would suggest you attempt to run as many heads as you can checking the spray pattern on the heads to be sure its still getting the correct coverage. You can pull more then one valve with most time clocks. You also mention the pump fills a tank. What happens when the tank goes dry? Do you have to regulate the heads based on the tank capacity. 500 gallons would surely go fast for irrigation.

gsxr1100 · May 11, 2005

I understand and I have used both brands. I even called 2 dealers in my area today and ask why they use Hunter vs Rainbird. One stated they did not like them from past usage and the other stated for durability or long term, hunter is better. Gee, shocking that I have no had one rotor go with hunter but the rains where like fountains in the spring…hmmmm.

Ps. I owned Fords for years and lets say now that I own foreign cars (Lexus and Mercedes), the quality is not even close. I would not take a motorcylce made in this country for free either (and you know what brand that it). Now those are overpriced and the only good parts on the bike are overseas parts installed on them.

Insecure???? LOL. Next time I talk to some people I will ask for the old replaced rainbirds for ya! /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif I am not pretentiousness as some here as I see. I am just stating what I have used and now do not use.

The falcons you like are just normal, hunter pgp, with ss added and some nozzles. The rainbirds are good for nozzles and that is it. I would get whatever is cheaper and last longer.

I would talk longer but you need time to clean all the rainbirds you have.
/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif

Just to see if Rainbird has stepped up a level I will try the following and see what happens. I will order soon.

1. Hunter I-40 4 inch, Adj. Arc S. Steel Rotor about $40
2. Rain Bird 8005SS Rotor about $33

_RaT_ · May 11, 2005

Mike, I know your waiting with baited breath for a response from me, so here it is:

Either way Mike, both companies are located right here in California so keep those dollars coming. We appreciate those well taxed dollars of yours. Suffice it to say, your personal experience is considerably different then mine.

PS, the bulk of my rotors (which is quite small at about 12) are 7005 SS series because they are universal, that is, are full circle or part circle. The is no fixed right or left so the nozzle direction right and left can be selected above ground. I have as much as 112 GPM of ditch water available to me, but choose to only run four heads to a circuit using 12 GPM nozzles on my 360 heads. My supply is 2" and from there goes 1.5" scrubber valves into 1.5" laterals dropping to 1.25" supplies for the last head which is with 2 PSI of the first head. I use 100% overlap. Each head ties in with 1" flexible PVC.

If your interested, I have a Hunter I-60 autographed by Mr Hunter, perhaps you would like to add it to your collection. It's yours for $150. It was a freebe for me to try out. I have some I-25's, 31's and a I-90 freebie's as well. All have had a good test in my very own lawns. All clog as easily as my Rainbirds. The Hunters filters are next to impossible to remove when caked with debris, the Rainbirds have fingers that a pair of needle nose can grab a hold of.

PS, PS maybe its your water, what are you guys putting in it? Rainbirds are known to fail with high levels of arsenic and selenium which might explain your problem.

I cannot tell you how much we get our irrigation supplies for, you would be envious. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

lww05 · May 13, 2005

Rat,

I had no part in installing the sprinkler system but did the water supply from the creek. The pump Dad used down close to the creek was a very old 1 HP 3600rpm jet pump which moderately supplied more water to the 500g tank than the sprinkler pump pulled out of the tank and sent out to the stations. I installed a float system on the tank to control the creek pump and also added a low level float to interrupt the sprinkler pump relay circuit for protection. That Teel pump was around $350 so we wanted to protect it.

This setup has been pretty much trouble free for a long time. When Dad was there, he kept a close eye on everything. The creek does get almost dry during the worst part of summer unless we get a lot of rain. Sometimes, I think maybe we should have had a deep well dug with a submersible pump. Anyway, he could be there to shut the system down if the creek got low. I think he would babysit it during the dry times by running the system for a while and then turning it off for a few days. Now that he is gone, I wish we would have installed a float on the creek with some type of off delay circuit to protect the seal in the jet pump. I had to replace it a couple of times in the old jet pump and now once in the new jet pump due to the creek getting too low. (The old pump finally had to be retired after lightning and the worn out housing.) I replaced it with a 1.5HP jet pump thinking it would outperform the old 1hp pump, but believe it or not, I'm getting a little worried about it keeping up with the sprinkler pump this year. I may try to see what volume I can get without the footvalve installed on the pump as the old one never had one on it.

You guys have me wondering about what brand valves and heads are in the system, I'll try to find out next time I'm there. I don't have much experience with them but when you live in a fairly small town and need parts right now, I go with what my local Lowes or HD have. My choices were Rainbird or Toro. I used 3 - 1" Rainbirds for replacements the other day.

I have learned a lot from the debate.

Just for fun, I invite you two to another thread I'm fixing to start on a question about hard to catch pond catfish.

_RaT_ · May 13, 2005

They make a device called a pump protector. What it does is learn what your pump amperage is. When your pump at the creek is pulling water and pumping it, it has a amperage based on that condition. If for example you run out of water, the amperage will go down, the detector will discern this and flash a yellow light I think it is and shut the pump off. Same thing if it senses a over current condition which would probably not happen in your case but would if you had a valve close on you that would not allow water to be pumped. Both of these conditions can happen to homes that use booster pumps to get domestic water up to the house when the utility water does not have enough pressure to supply the home. Conversely, a low voltage situation or over voltage situation also kicks out the pump. If your remotley interested, I will get the manufactuers name. The protector has to be reset by hand.

PS check the Rainbird website for the various water filtration equipment they make. I installed a pair of Lakos sand filters which filter 250 GPM each. It was used at an orchard that eliminated 90% or its impact irrigation and went to a drip/emitter setup. That orchard by the way has ripe cherries and peaches already. Your situation does not call for that elaborate kind of a setup but could use a small 100GPM Spears type filter. Spears is the brand name, it uses a stainless steel screen that you select based on your filtering needs.