size weight vs. fwd cuts

[arrow]

Recently, while watching a tractor pull contest at a local fair, I got to thinking as to exactly when does a front wheel assist tractor that is smaller, get to the same work ability as a larger 2wd tractor or is there any equal point at all. While watching the 3500# class, I said to myself "my 3000# JD 750 with loaded rears in 4wd would never be able to pull a 5500# sled such as these 2wd tractors are doing or even a 500# less heavy sled to make up the tractor weight difference. The deceased farmer across from me would routinely pull out two 16" oaks with the tops attached out of course woods with a Farmall tricycle. . I need two trips to get even one tree completely out. Of course pulling with weight in the back begins to negate front wheel assist. If one were plowing snow, 4wd certainly comes in handy but all the differentials such as gearing, rear wheel size. tire type (for this discussion, let's say we're comparing ag treads)and beyond weight and weighting, I'd just be curious to know other people's hypotheses where the break even point is and how much of a non difference 4wd would make on a smaller vs. larger tractor.

 

[john_bud]

Depends on uses. For loader work, it's about 2:1 or even 3:1 -- but can be 1:1. Where a 3000# fwa tractor can get the work done that a 6000-9000# 2wd tractor can do. Obviously, the ground makes a huge difference too. On all flat hard dry ground, there may be no difference, where working on wet, muddy and/or hilly ground it may be 3:1. I know my 10,000# TLB can't back up a 25% grade at all with a full bucket, but the 4000# fwa tractor can easily.

For field work ?

jb

 

[Lunk]

I had a 2wd Ford 2000 gasser (3 cyl) that weighed about 4k with loaded rears and an ancient FASCO loader on it. In the winter I'd chain 'er up and hook up to a 800# ballast box, and plow snow like there's no tomorrow.

That being said, I think my FWA CUT will work even better. The bare tractor weighs about 3800#, and with loader and ballast (in the form of a weighted box blade) will scale about 5k. We'll have to see if chains are needed...

When it comes to getting power to the ground, whether pulling or plowing, weight is a good thing, unless of course you are spending a lot of time on lawns, or in the soupy stuff.

Those old tractors are pretty heavy...

 

[Farmwithjunk]

A point that you touched upon is the OLD farmer pulling with the FarmAll..... Old, as in EXPERIENCED. There's a lot to know about pulling with a tractor. Age isn't an automatic.... but without age, as logic will dictate, you have a much greater library of experience to call upon. Some of us old timers learned to do with what we had. A lot of that "school of hard knocks" knowledge sticks with us. Pulling a load isn't all about brute force power. There are subtle "tricks of the trade".

Also, when pulling off the drawbar, weight transfer can (should) put the majority of the tractors entire weight on the rear wheels. Gearing on the oldies is such that they take advantage of that weight and usually, slow, torquey power.

I've got three MFWD tractors. I've got three 2wds. Even on the 3 equipped with MFWD, I use the 4wd far less than what I'd perceive as "average". Just don't need it that much. It's handy when needed, but again, it just isn't all than nessicary the majority of the time.

I'd imagine MFWD is more critical if and when a person is trying to use a small tractor in place of a larger one. (All 3 of my MFWD's are "larger"....85 to 95 hp)

 

[art]

Just for thoughts of the age and old, a good freind that owns a BX23 towed out of his woodlot three trailer loads of cherry with some up to 16' plus long logs. There was nothing under 16" on the stump and some up to 20" This was not on the level as he dragged them down a hill about 50' height change across a stream thats about 6' wide and then a gain about 70' back up a hill to where I loaded them in a trailer to transport to a freinds sawmill.

I figure the four wheel gain to be mainly noticable in less then ideal conditions! It can make a thirty horsepower machine act better then a fifty!

Knowing how to use things properly makes a big difference in the jobs you might get done.

 

[Runner]

"There are subtle "tricks of the trade". "

FWJ,

As a young (50 year old) whipper-snapper, I'd love to hear some of your tricks for future reference. Maybe I can save myself some work/headaches and some wear and tear on the equipment.

 

[arrow]

"There are subtle "tricks of the trade". "

FWJ,

As a young (50 year old) whipper-snapper, I'd love to hear some of your tricks for future reference. Maybe I can save myself some work/headaches and some wear and tear on the equipment.

Good point FWJ. One of the tricks that my farmer friend used was that he never initiated a pull with straight wheels. He'd turn the trike wheels first, start off on a pivot, immediately straighten and off he'd go the rest of the way. that Farmall was pretty agile in the woods with its tri stance. I witnessed someone's death many years ago when the guy strapped 3 16-20" stems about 20 ft long to his Allis WD-45. He revved the engine,popped the clutch and over he went. My Farmer friend thought it safer to start on an arc. He also thought it started the load more easily. Don't know of the validity to his theory but it worked for him.

 

[Farmwithjunk]

Good point FWJ. One of the tricks that my farmer friend used was that he never initiated a pull with straight wheels. He'd turn the trike wheels first, start off on a pivot, immediately straighten and off he'd go the rest of the way. that Farmall was pretty agile in the woods with its tri stance. I witnessed someone's death many years ago when the guy strapped 3 16-20" stems about 20 ft long to his Allis WD-45. He revved the engine,popped the clutch and over he went. My Farmer friend thought it safer to start on an arc. He also thought it started the load more easily. Don't know of the validity to his theory but it worked for him.

There is one good "trick". By starting the pull at a slight angle, you will begin moving the "object" with little sideways movement instead of all forward drag. Just getting something moving, even if it's not 100% in the direction you're finally headed might just make the move a little easier. By pulling slightly sidewaysat first, you're moving just part of the weight initially. Once it's moving, then you go straight and take on all the weight/resistance

Also, if you get 100% traction right off the mark, you might just bog the engine down. By lining up at a slight angle, you get a little wheel slip as the hard pull starts. That let's you get started moving gradually. (Let the wheels serve as a slip clutch so to speak) If the tractor won't pull whatever it is you're pulling, and the little bit of wheel spin turns into a spinout, well, that would have happened anyway. If the tractor CAN pull whatever it is, that little bit of "spin" goes away quickly once things start moving.

NEVER attach a chain above the drawbar on ANY tractor. Bad things can happen. But, carefully choose where you hook thechain to whatever it is you're dragging. The forward pull should, if possible, raise the leading edge, or at the very least, not force it to dig in. Hook LOW to the ground.

MOMENTUM. Once you're moving, KEEP MOVING.

S.L.O.W. and steady. Don't jerk. No clutch dumping or "fanning" the clutch. Even if nothing serious happens at the moment, that's rough on equipment. If the tractor won't pull whatever it is, GET A BIGGER TRACTOR.

 

[slowzuki]

Drawbar pull, when it is angled down (such as a plow or weight sled), can transfer all the tractor weight and part of the load weight to the rear wheels. When those front wheels are just kissing the ground and you're steering with your brakes, there is much more than the tractor weight on the rear tires.

A draft type 3 point hitch helps with this as when it is loaded harder, it lifts to transfer weight to the rear tires.

In simple terms, the traction obtained is that total weight on the tires multiplied by the coefficient of friction the tire can make. So a small increase in weight or weight distribution can really increase traction. (500 lbs of suitcase weight hung way out front could increase your peak pull by more than 500 lbs)

Where the 4wd helps a lot is when you aren't pulling such that the weight transfer happens. So, a level pull on a trailer or tree, pushing with a loader, driving a full loader bucket up a hill etc.

The other thing is, when the coefficient of friction drops off, all that weight up front on a 2wd becomes a hinderance as it can't generate enough pull to lift it and has to plow it through instead. Watch a ballasted 2wd try to get through a wet field.

 

[Egon]

Watch a ballasted 2wd try to get through a wet field.

Do we have enough time???

Or does it sprout and grow??