Should I Start Haying?

savaytse66 · Apr 6, 2016

I just recently acquired a nice 60+ acre property, 30-40 of which is an established alfalfa/pasture grass crop. Our understanding from the previous owner is that a local boarder came once or twice a year, cut everything down, baled hay, and took it away. In return, he gave her a small per/bale cut. Her per/bale cut looks to be around 5% of what the small square bales go for around here, retail. I can continue the same arrangement, which wouldn't net me a whole lot of $, but it would save me from having to cut down the fields myself, so that's worth something.

On the other hand, there is clearly a demand for the hay, so I am debating whether to start looking for some used equipment. I would need everything, including a tractor. I have a little Kubota BX25, which is fine for cutting the 2 acre lawn, but is clearly not adequate to even consider haying. So a couple questions for you more experienced folk:

Is haying the property myself even a consideration? Am I looking at too large a $ investment? I understand the labor investment is significant also, but we didn't buy the property to sit back and relax.
We will be slowly adding livestock to the property (rabbits, various poultry, goats, and maybe sheep). Would we be better off just letting the animals graze on the pasture? In other words, might we see a better return on investment if we use the pasture ourselves and let the animals return some if it back to nature?
What kind of yields can I even expect? I realize there are a lot of variables: fertilizer, weather, age of crop, etc. But is there an expected number of small square bales per acre that I can use for running some comparisons?

The first summer here, I am inclined to let the local guy do it since it's not something I want to jump into right away. But in the longer term, I have a gut feeling that there are better options out there.

Thoughts?

MH8675309 · Apr 6, 2016

You have winter there - consider making hay to get you through the winter months.

teg · Apr 6, 2016

I do NOT know about haying but have a couple of friends that "give" the hay away so they don't have to cut it. One of them finally quit since the "farmer" (not really but I'll be nice) did not want to pay to fertilize the fields or do any improvements. In fact, he left it a mess several times, old hay bails laying around.

I think they were both taken advantage of... and the locals are more than happy to do it. I would look at getting it cut on shares, 60% for them 40% for you - even if you don't need the hay, they can usually sell it for you.

It is expensive if you don't have the equipment and would need to buy everything...

LukeD · Apr 6, 2016

Consider having someone cut and bale it for you. I just charge a flat rate per bale to cut and bale it, and the land owner picks it up themselves. Doing it yourself is good, but is a very expensive investment.

BoylermanCT · Apr 6, 2016

Haying requires a bit of equipment - larger tractor (40hp or so), mower / conditioner, tedder, rake, bailer and hay wagons. You could probably get decent used equipment for $15-$25K, new for quite a bit more. In CT, my father-in-law hays 15 acres and gets 100 bales an acre total with 2 cuts per season. He sells them for $5.50 per bale. If you got 100 bales from 30 acres, at $5.50 a bale, you are looking at $16,500 a year. Consider maintenance, repairs, supplies, taxes and you could pay off the equipment in a few years. You will need a large barn to store the bales in, or find buyers who will meet you in the field. Haying is hot dirty work. I recommend you have your neighbor bale for the first year, and help him out to see if you want to get into the business. You may find you like tending to your animals more, and then have him pay you for allowing him to hay your fields in hay so you have winter feed for your animals.

DT86 · Apr 6, 2016

If you don't want to jump in feet first this year try to find a more favorable deal with someone to cut it. 5% is absolutely a one sided deal.

That will give you time to watch and learn for a while. You may end up deciding you'd rather spend the time and money else where.

mattv1 · Apr 6, 2016

It is an investment, that is for sure. I'd suggest a complete understanding of costs of equipment, costs of land upkeep, and an examination of your equipment repair skills because breakdowns are awful if there is cut hay in the field and rain coming.....and they're even worse if you don't know how to fix your own equipment (wait for mechanic to show up, and then pay dearly for after-hours service).

I grew up farming (mid-30's now) and I've been haying for my wife's horse boarding operation for the last 4 years. EVERY year i've gotten at least one upgraded piece of equipment. Started with about 12 acres, did almost 80 acres last year.... new stuff to break and fix can be very frustrating.

Biggest expense is the tractor - i already had one before i decided to bale (i've upgraded since...) but since your current tractor won't get the job done that would be a tough pill for me to swallow.

Farmer495 · Apr 7, 2016

Of course every land owner is different. Some are quite happy to just have the land cut off for "free" saving them from having to buy a tractor, mower, fuel, etc.

Others seem to think that the guy with tens of thousands of dollars tied up in equipment, their time, fuel and labor should should pay them to rent the land, apply fertilizer etc on poor land.

No way would I buy a bunch of gear to hay for profit. I penciled it out with existing owned equipment and land (instead of feeding livestock, sell hay) and it wasn't really worth the while, especially with all the stories you read with hay buyers....

Ed of all trades · Apr 8, 2016

Haying looks like a lot of work and it is. It also costs a lot to get good equipment and old equipment tends to break when you have hay on the ground and rain coming. The big thing that is needed is a large investment in knowledge. It is an art to getting up good hay. If you could do it in the barn with no rain to deal with it would be easier, but you have to know when to cut and how to dance around that time to miss the rain. You have to know how wet is to wet to bale and what is to dry. You have to know when to rake to help it to dry faster................... You also need to know how to work on equipment. It will break on sat. just as the local shop is closing and you have a lot of hay ready to bale. I am not trying to talk you out of it but you need to know that haying is not a simple thing that any moron can do on the first try.
I assume you have a barn to put the hay in, and a place to put your equipment. If you could find an old farmer to coach you in this you would be ahead.

I hayed for 20 years on my own and helped my dad before that. Ed

newbury · Apr 8, 2016

savaytse66 said:
I just recently acquired a nice 60+ acre property, 30-40 of which is an established alfalfa/pasture grass crop. <snip>
The first summer here, I am inclined to let the local guy do it since it's not something I want to jump into right away. But in the longer term, I have a gut feeling that there are better options out there.

Thoughts?

The "standard" TBN response is usually "go for it, spend the money (it's not OURS), buy more equipment, have fun". Except in haying and backhoes (sometimes).

OP, you don't mention your "life situation". If your a relatively young (50ish), real healthy MAN, retired on a a GREAT pension with nothing else to do all day and great mechanical skills it might make sense IF you are also going to burn the hay in cows or horses.

BUT -
Haying requires TIMING. Especially in areas like Pennsylvania which has been known to get rain in the fall. So if you've a job you can't drop just to go hay before a major storm you can lose a lot of hay.
I only hayed for about 4 years in Vermont, but can still remember the long days, starting before dawn and going to well past astronomical twilight.
If you don't have an alternative to selling hay, like a horse, no profit when everyone has a great hay season.
If you can't wrench on used hay implements you'll need to buy new, and they are expensive.

SO - you've got 60 acres, you NEED a bigger tractor

just to drive around on your 60 acres. Start another thread and let us dream about spending your money on OUR dream tractor.

Just try not to discuss how many lids should dance on a grapple

/edit - it also helps GREATLY if about 14 to 18 years ago you had the foresight to breed 4 strong sons to help you

crackerjack222 · Apr 8, 2016

I think you would need to be baling many more acres than you have to pay for even used equipment. I would probably divide your acres in about three paddocks and fertilize heavily, let livestock harvest the grass on pasture rotation, and if you had any excess grass let someone else bale it on shares or for a fee per bale.

sammyd · Apr 8, 2016

Here I take 75% of the hay and the landowner gets the rest. If all you are going to have around is a few hobby animals this and pasture would probably work out best for you.

I bought my first haymaking stuff when I had less than an acre of hay. I used a sickle mower to cut the stuff and hauled it in loose.
Later after having 5 acres of nice hay turned to bedding when my baler guy didn't show twice I bought my own baler.
Used a 400 dollar sickle mower a 150 dollar crimper and a 750 dollar baler all behind my 550 dollar tractor.
Made 2 cuttings on 10 acres of hay for a couple of years then upgraded to a bigger tractor and a haybine. Total investment so far around 4000.
I have been making up to 80 acres of hay a year for 10 years or so and contrary to popular stories, my stuff doesn't break down every time it gets out of the shed, I don't have to retime it every time I use it and I don't have perform magic spells to get the hay made.
I honestly don't understand all the big scary about haying and hay equipment. I grew up on a dairy farm in WI we made thousands of bales every year, and can only recall one breakdown. The baler was pretty bullet proof. Just hook up, grease up and go.
Making hay isn't a mystery or that hard at all.
I work 3rd shift and it fits haying to a tee. I get home and make sure stuff is lubed and fueled and take a nap. Up around 11 to haybine. I lay the hay out as flat as it will go. even removed the wings on my old 467 haybine all together. In a couple of days I go out at 11 to flip the hay into windrows and back out at 2 or so to bale it up. I used to stack on the wagon but now I have a son that is big enough to do that and that is really nice...
Get the wagons home and hay stacked that evening or in the morning if I don't have to work that night.
I only cut what I can get baled in one day. Has worked out quite well for many years.
http://www.sefsufficient.com/drill/2013/baling2.JPG

zzvyb6 · Apr 8, 2016

Haying is fun, work, can be a money maker and a great tax dodge. You'll need equipment (used preferably) a welder, drill press, grinder, torches, a huge anvil, expensive vice, a refrigerator or two in the barn and maybe a bass boat (150+ hp ought to do).

Now is not really the time to buy used equipment, though. Best to buy just after last cutting in late Fall. Haying is all about timing as previously mentioned. I only do 100 or so bales per day. Sell to neighbors for their horses. Deliver to friends who only carry $100 bills in the 'satchels'. Now is tax time. Dang. I lost money again in the hay business. Might have been that new insulated garage door and opener on the barn. Or maybe the JLG T350 boom lift for trimming the trees in the hayfields. Best situation is for neighbors with horses and teenagers ordered to work. I have a NH stack wagon and can drop it off in their yard. Trade for money (cash only please).

This also helps me keep my 'agricultural' status for township property taxes.

Sawyer Rob · Apr 8, 2016

Should I Start Haying?

Yeaaa, I just looked out and the sun's shining.....sooo, go ahead...

SR

Gary Fowler · Apr 8, 2016

zzvyb6 said:
Haying is fun, work, can be a money maker and a great tax dodge. You'll need equipment (used preferably) a welder, drill press, grinder, torches, a huge anvil, expensive vice, a refrigerator or two in the barn and maybe a bass boat (150+ hp ought to do).

Now is not really the time to buy used equipment, though. Best to buy just after last cutting in late Fall. Haying is all about timing as previously mentioned. I only do 100 or so bales per day. Sell to neighbors for their horses. Deliver to friends who only carry $100 bills in the 'satchels'. Now is tax time. Dang. I lost money again in the hay business. Might have been that new insulated garage door and opener on the barn. Or maybe the JLG T350 boom lift for trimming the trees in the hayfields. Best situation is for neighbors with horses and teenagers ordered to work. I have a NH stack wagon and can drop it off in their yard. Trade for money (cash only please).

This also helps me keep my 'agricultural' status for township property taxes.

Those little square bales used to be ok when labor was cheap. I don't know of anyone who bales them today. Everyone is into big round bales=no physical labor involved to pick up, move and stack AND they will store outside in the weather with minimal loss. Cons are that the round balers run $10K used, you need a larger tractor to run them and a larger tractor to pick them up and store them.
Around here price to bale is in line (or out of line with reality) with cost of the baling equipment. Most guys will charge $20-25 per bale to cut/bale on your hay patch and many of them want to cut your hay for the hay without any compensation. I think this is due to the excess of acreage that folks allow it just so their field don't get overgrown and they don't have to lay out $25-50K for the equipment to do it themselves. The neighbor across the road from me just "rented" 40 acres of slightly abused (overgrown) hay field that he had previously had cut by a local haying guy. The "rent" is keep the field weeds mowed down. He cut is last fall and has bush hogged the weedy spots this spring already. He plans to have it cut and baled this year and grass his entire pasture on rotation. I allow him to graze 4-5 acres of my property that I don't mow as part of my lawn and he has 30 more acres of pasture. I think he will get enough good hay from the neighbors property to get all of his winter hay needs.
We discussed buying some hay equipment and doing it ourselves. Between the two of us we have all the tractors that we would need but the pencil just wasn't sharp enough to make the cut. TOO many invested dollars for little return and there is already 2-3 guys baling around here with established customers for any competition.

If you could find some good deal on an old square baling equipment + tractor to pull it with, you might make $$$wise sense to do it yourself as a hobby, but don't expect to save any money vs just buying it from someone. Remember also that every bale of hay taken from your hayfield needs to have the equivalent energy returned to the land in the form of fertilizer and fertilizer ain't cheap by no means, also unfertilized hay is not a rich in nutrients for your cattle as what comes from a fertilized field.

zzvyb6 · Apr 8, 2016

Square bales for horses all around me is and has been $4.00 to $5.50 per bale for the last 3 years. All you have to do is search Craigslist in the Ann Arbor or Detroit area. Delivery, extra. Horse people here have no use for round bales, don't have feeders for them and can't manage them (move them around). Round bales done by a few locals stay in regiment formation at the edge of their field and slowly rot away. Their contents tends to be poor quality for horses, too.

I searched for horse hay in your area. Bales are also around $5.00 with some premium hay selling for $9.00 a standard (small) square bale. Your round bales are going for $15 - $18. Same premise I would guess: Horse people (if there are any) don't want them. I looked around Cabot / Lonoke, Honey Grove and Ravenden Springs. Even some marketted from Corley Texas.

Bottom line is there appears to be a strong market for horse hay. If you have horses, buying small square bales is not a good option if you already have a tractor and a truck and can spend a few thousand bucks (maybe 5) for a mower, a rake, a baler, and a delivery trailer. Ideal setup for a few teenagers (men and women) who have energy, goals and sisu.

TractorToolsDirect · Apr 13, 2016

A few thoughts:

1. Making hay, especially square bales, is hard work. If you don't enjoy the physical labor of it, you will grow to hate doing it. On the other hand, there is no more satisfying feeling than a barn full of square bales of high quality hay as the sun is setting.
2. Your Kubota BX tractor is a bit small for that much acreage, but you do not have to have 40+ horsepower as stated by others in this thread. There is high quality compact hay equipment out there that can be run efficiently with a 25-30hp tractor of 2000+ pounds. In fact, your Kubota BX can make hay, but the production rate would be too slow for 30 acres.
3. Every time someone takes hay tonnage off your fields, it is costing you, one way or the other. The nutrients either have to be replaced (some kind of fertilizer), which is expensive, or you are going to end up with a field that won't grow anything but weeds. If your field is hilly, you are asking for erosion problems in the long term.
4. With some time and studying, you can make better hay than you will ever get having the farmer down the road do it. Why? Because he/she will not have the same motivations as you will. If you are feeding your own animals, you have a big incentive to make sure you have quality hay. That means you will make hay when the timing is right for the hay, not when it is convenient. Most contract hayers bale for quantity per cutting, which means they will generally cut too late. It is more work to cut earlier and more often, but it will greatly improve your hay quality.
5. There is always a market for quality hay. If you want to sell your extra hay, you can quickly build a reputation if it is good quality. You will have repeat customers and they will tell their friends.
6. Old equipment is cheap (relatively) but is generally not dependable. And repairs may be difficult, costly, or maybe impossible. And remember, equipment only breaks when it is being used, which means you are in the middle of the job, that now urgently needs to be finished. New equipment, on the other hand, is expensive, but will be ready to work when you are and will still be operational at the end of the day.

cat fever · Apr 13, 2016

TractorToolsDirect said:
A few thoughts:

1. Making hay, especially square bales, is hard work. If you don't enjoy the physical labor of it, you will grow to hate doing it. On the other hand, there is no more satisfying feeling than a barn full of square bales of high quality hay as the sun is setting.
2. Your Kubota BX tractor is a bit small for that much acreage, but you do not have to have 40+ horsepower as stated by others in this thread. There is high quality compact hay equipment out there that can be run efficiently with a 25-30hp tractor of 2000+ pounds. In fact, your Kubota BX can make hay, but the production rate would be too slow for 30 acres.
3. Every time someone takes hay tonnage off your fields, it is costing you, one way or the other. The nutrients either have to be replaced (some kind of fertilizer), which is expensive, or you are going to end up with a field that won't grow anything but weeds. If your field is hilly, you are asking for erosion problems in the long term.
4. With some time and studying, you can make better hay than you will ever get having the farmer down the road do it. Why? Because he/she will not have the same motivations as you will. If you are feeding your own animals, you have a big incentive to make sure you have quality hay. That means you will make hay when the timing is right for the hay, not when it is convenient. Most contract hayers bale for quantity per cutting, which means they will generally cut too late. It is more work to cut earlier and more often, but it will greatly improve your hay quality.
5. There is always a market for quality hay. If you want to sell your extra hay, you can quickly build a reputation if it is good quality. You will have repeat customers and they will tell their friends.
6. Old equipment is cheap (relatively) but is generally not dependable. And repairs may be difficult, costly, or maybe impossible. And remember, equipment only breaks when it is being used, which means you are in the middle of the job, that now urgently needs to be finished. New equipment, on the other hand, is expensive, but will be ready to work when you are and will still be operational at the end of the day.

I agree with all of this;
I grow my own hay because I enjoy it. Total cost for me last year was 70 grand to get set up. That includes a new tractor and the barn in my avatar. The rest of my equipment is old and needed a little work but everything works great at this point. I could have bought hay for a couple lifetimes for that much money. But, it is so satisfying to watch the hay grow and the equipment work. I don't plan on stopping anytime soon. You'll have to look at your situation and see if you feel the same.

That little ugly bale is the first one I ever grew, cut and baled with my own equipment. Still makes me smile.

RPW · Apr 19, 2016

I started haying about 4 years ago. Last year was the first year that I actually got anything baled. Even with the very wet spring last year which basically destroyed my first cutting I still went ahead and baled what I could. More for practice than anything else. My horses still eat what I produced and this last year my total cost for purchasing hay was $0.00. Now it still cost me, fertilizer etc. But it felt good not to have to drive every couple of months to pick up 8 1500lb rounds. This year is shaping up better (I hope). Only new piece of equipment was my tractor everything else was old worn out machinery. In some cases probably would have been better off selling for scrape. But with some TLC time and a modest budget I have brought back a JD350 9ft sicklebar bower and old IH16 side delivery rake and a Vermeer 605C baler back to life. Last year I was almost at the poìnt of scraping the 605 and go in debt for a new baler but things worked out.

It's a lot of work but I enjoy it. Hope to make a little money this year.