Safety Issues - Stability

[emilioespejo]

Hi there,

I am new to tractors, a total noob. I bought my Kioti CK2510 unit based on online reviews and obviously with very limited knowledge of "hands on" operation. I love the size and power of my tractor, I can park it in the garage when I am away and it does everything I expect it to do from a power/lift perspective, mostly moving dirt and old logs for trail maintenance. My problems come when I am not working on a flat surface. My property is mostly rough terrain, I have 50 acres of woods with trails and I am finding extremely difficult moving around and working with the unit if the terrain has the slightest pitch. I am talking something as small 10-15 degrees. If I am carrying any load, even as close to the surface as physically possible, , my wheels keep lifting off the ground. I get into more severe problems when there is mud ( and In NY there seems to be only two seasons, snow and mud) and one of my front wheels sink, same effect happens. Sometimes I get 12 inch liftoff, Am I being too paranoid? I am on my ATV on 3 wheels many times but it feels balanced and secure, but on the tractor it just feels it is going to roll over and unsafe... Any feedback from more experienced users or suggestion of solutions to improve the situation will be appreciated. What is safe ground grade to work with a tractor of this size?

 

[N2DFire]

Ok just a couple random things off the top of my head

You state

If I am carrying any load, even as close to the surface as physically possible, , my wheels keep lifting off the ground.

I am assuming you mean carrying a load in the Front End Loader (FEL) and not the rear 3pt (so correct me if I am wrong) - but with that in mind...

1) Are your tires loaded with fluid (Beet Juice, Windshield Washer Fluid, etc)
2) Are you carrying anything on the 3pt to act as a counterweight
3) What type of tires do you have(Ag, Industrial, or Turf)

For Q1 & Q2 - I looked on the website and Kioti no longer publishes the information but you should be able to find it in the manual for your Loader - Somewhere it should tell you the required amount of counterweight in order to get the maximum lift capacity of your loader.

For our older CK35 / KL120 - it required 700lbs of 3pt counter weight OVER having filled rear tires.

Q3 - On the older CK series - the Ag tires come on different rims than Turf or Industrial. The Ag rims allow for widening the rear "stance" which adds to cross hill stability. Again I read the literature on the web site and it wasn't clear to me if the new CK10 series was the same nor could I see if the overall width of the (wider) industrial tires were the same as the max width on Ag's - that may be a dealer type question.


And my last suggestion (esp if you're moving earth or timber which can vary greatly in weigh based on density & water content) - maybe you're just biting off more than you can chew.
Like my father still reminds me (almost every time I get on it) - It's not a D9 dozer it's a tractor. lol


Oh - almost forgot - Welcome to TBN.

 

[9973720wb19]

i hate to say this but maybe your tractor is too small? a larger tractor will be more stable - other than that - put wheel weights on

 

[tractorshopper]

I'm with Steve, and in the same order. Fill rear wheels, put a heavy duty box blade on your 3PH (or some other heavy attachment), and if you can adjust the width of rear wheels, do it.

Ballast makes all the difference in the world with feel and actually getting the complete capability out of your loader while lowering your center of gravity. Tractor will feel much less tippy.

I somewhat disagree with 99737 though. A larger tractor will not necessarily be, or better yet, feel, more stable. There are many factors that go into it other than just big vs small. My last tractor was a much larger and heavier tractor ballasted the same way as my current smaller tractor, and I take my smaller tractor on side slopes that I would have never taken my larger tractor on if for no other reason than the feel of being that much more up off the ground. I'm sure I would have rolled it on the stuff I run my small tractor on.

 

[emilioespejo]

Hi Steve, Thanks for the welcoming message!. At the present time I have no weights, stock tractor, air filled Ag tires After typing this message I kept reading online. I saw that people recommend adding fluid to the tires and I also see people making custom weights for the rear 3pt. (regular tires take fluid or you need special tires?) I work in commercial heating and cooling so I have access to hundreds of gallons of discarded propylene glycol...that might be useful ...
I am very cautious when driving this thing and I never overload it, the feeling of insecurity happens even without any weight in the FEL (except for the bucket or the grapple itself) just going on the off road trail with hundreds of uneven points....
I appreciate your suggestions and research. Thank you so much!

 

[emilioespejo]

I'm with Steve, and in the same order. Fill rear wheels, put a heavy duty box blade on your 3PH (or some other heavy attachment), and if you can adjust the width of rear wheels, do it.

Ballast makes all the difference in the world with feel and actually getting the complete capability out of your loader while lowering your center of gravity. Tractor will feel much less tippy.

I somewhat disagree with 99737 though. A larger tractor will not necessarily be, or better yet, feel, more stable. There are many factors that go into it other than just big vs small. My last tractor was a much larger and heavier tractor ballasted the same way as my current smaller tractor, and I take my smaller tractor on side slopes that I would have never taken my larger tractor on if for no other reason than the feel of being that much more up off the ground. I'm sure I would have rolled it on the stuff I run my small tractor on.

Thank you for your suggestions as well David. Truly appreciated! I know I might sound like a dumbass at this point... but I am simply not used to equipment with this weight distribution or knowledgeable of options to improve the situation... Sounds like filling the tires will be step 1. Do they sell kits online? I would assume you need to change the schrader valve to something else? Do the tires then get standing fluid pressure or you need to leave lets say 10% air to set them to pressure?

 

[CobyRupert]

Sounds like filling the tires will be step 1. Do they sell kits online? I would assume you need to change the schrader valve to something else? Do the tires then get standing fluid pressure or you need to leave lets say 10% air to set them to pressure?

There are kits to add fluid.

Yes you leave some air in them.

Remember any weight you add above the tractor's center of gravity, raises the tractor's center of gravity (example: fluid right up to the top of the tire) and will make the tractor less stable on side hills than if the weight wasn't up there. (Although the additional weight gives the tractor more traction, and all the fluid you added before lowered the C.O.G., so you'd just be cancelling out any gains). Most tractors center of gravity height (not considering a FEL) is probably just above the rear axle, or about 2/3 the tire height (rough estimate). And that is were many fill to.
Here's a chart on how many gallons for a given wheel size
View attachment AG Tires Ballast.pdf

 

[N2DFire]

Hi Steve, Thanks for the welcoming message!. At the present time I have no weights, stock tractor, air filled Ag tires After typing this message I kept reading online. I saw that people recommend adding fluid to the tires and I also see people making custom weights for the rear 3pt. (regular tires take fluid or you need special tires?) I work in commercial heating and cooling so I have access to hundreds of gallons of discarded propylene glycol...that might be useful ...
I am very cautious when driving this thing and I never overload it, the feeling of insecurity happens even without any weight in the FEL (except for the bucket or the grapple itself) just going on the off road trail with hundreds of uneven points....
I appreciate your suggestions and research. Thank you so much!

Thank you for your suggestions as well David. Truly appreciated! I know I might sound like a dumbass at this point... but I am simply not used to equipment with this weight distribution or knowledgeable of options to improve the situation... Sounds like filling the tires will be step 1. Do they sell kits online? I would assume you need to change the schrader valve to something else? Do the tires then get standing fluid pressure or you need to leave lets say 10% air to set them to pressure?

I'm going to merge your questions into 1 answer.

Your stock tires will take fluid no problem & the propylene glycol will work great - esp if you have a source for cheap / free.
As for how to fill - there are kits/adapters sold as well as several How To videos on YouTube. Most of the VooDoo magic part is how to actually get the fluid into the tire and I will leave that to you & YouTube to figure out what works best for you.

The basics is to lift the side of the tractor you're working on to take the weight off of the tire, rotate the valve stem to the top, bleed off the air pressure, fill with fluid till it's up to the valve stem (full as you can get it), and then just re-insert the valve stem and top with air to operating pressure.

And while you're at it, there's nothing wrong with filling the front tires too.

Since you said you have Ag tires I would investigate the rims and see if you can widen the stance at all (and unless you have some other type of space restrictions I'd go wide as possible) - I would also do this BEFORE filling them as they will get dangerously heavy & unmanageable afterward.

When we bought our CK we cheated and had the dealer fill & widen before delivery but it's doable with some basic tools & time.

Once you fill the tires you can see if you need additional counterweight & if so (like David said) a Box Blade is the most popular choice because it's heavy, sits close to the tractor for maneuverability, and a lot more useful than a big hunk of concrete.

And for the record you do not sound like a dumbass - we all started out not knowing anything. Better you ask here than get hurt (or worse) learning on your own. :thumbsup:

 

[CobyRupert]

Ballast and widen.

If the stock rims don't let you adjust the width, also consider wheel spacers.

 

[ritcheyvs]

From a safety perspective, it is critical to keep both rear wheels on the ground. The front axle is on a trunion (pivot) so is provides zero roll stability. So if you lift a rear wheel you could start to roll, maybe all the way.

Here are some links on liquid filling kits:
Installing Liquid Ballast in Tires | GEMPLER'S
Amazon.com: Slime 273 Air & Water Adapter Kit: Automotive

You'll have to rig something to deliver the glycol under a few psi pressure. Here's one way:
Tricks to Filling Tractor Tires with Water - YouTube

Some tractors have back wheels that let you widen the distance between the back wheels, If so, do that before adding liquid. Wheels and tires are heavy and much heavier when filled (to the point of being dangerous).

A box blade is a VERY handy attachment (the heavier the better) and it makes a good ballast.