Questions about ironworkers...

[jakescia]

I know zip about ironworkers......but what little I do know, appears we could use one in our farm shop.

Questions:
1. Difference between "mechanical" and "hydraulic" would probably merely be that, for mechanical, the ram is turned by an electric motor hooked to a pulley driving a gear wheel???

2. With respect to used ironworkers.......we have only single phase electrics in our shop............if we were to buy a "3 phase" hydraulic.........could that be converted to single phase by merely changing out the electric motor, are would there be other limiting switches, etc that would be compromised, and resultantly not allow such a simple remedy?

3. Appears that the minimum size-----according to a punch tonnage chart I got on the "GEKA" website---------- that we would probably be comfortable with, would be about 50tons, so we could punch 1 inch holes in 1/2 inch metal???

4. Where would you spend your time looking for a used one......we are located in central Iowa, but have no difficulty in hooking up a gooseneck and traveling......obviously depending upon price???

Thanks.....your comments will be appreciated.

 

[newbury]

Look in auctions - I just saw one a few days ago but I can't remember where.

IRS auctions, Government liquidation, public surplus are suspects.

 

[ThomasH]

With the caveat that I have worked in two shops, with a total of 3 ironworker type machines and used them off and on for shearing angle, punching holes, and that sort of thing, I hardly call myself an expert but have some experience with them.

1) Yup, that is pretty much it. Hydraulic units (at least the smaller ones that I have been around) don't wear as fast, as there is a fair amount of stress that is put on a direct drive unit. Non hydraulic units that I have seen are considered light gauge steel only.

2) If it is hydraulic, you would have a motor with a 3 phase starter. All of the units I used had low voltage (24 volt) circuits for the controls, so there would also be a 208-240 volt transformer that was single phase (just wired across 1 pair of the legs) which would function if it was used on 240 volt single phase. Whether there is something else to address would depend on the type and simplicity of the control circuits that do things like reverse the hydraulics to cycle the ram, etc. The machines I used were 20-40 years old, so they pre-date any computer controls that might be on the later machinery. Also, you could put a 3 phase to 1 phase converter (using a VFD) on it and run it as a 3 phase unit. The 50 ton unit I worked with had a 5 HP motor on it, so you would need a VFD that would work with that size motor.

3) The 50 ton unit that I used was a Scotchman, and it would do up to 1" in 1/2" and 3/4" in 3/4 plate. It was noticeably slower in thicker material, I assume due to a two speed hydraulic pump.

4) You might try machinerytrader.com or an auction of a metal fabricator. I have also seen them for sale on Craigslist.

Good luck!

 

[mrmikey]

Thomas is right on with his comments but I'm gonna add a few of mine

1) The mechanical I used before was war era, had a 3-400 lb flywheel, if you put too heavy material in it to punch, somethings gonna give be it the punch, anvil, keyways just something. Advantage of the hydraulic one although you can still shatter a punch the chances of overpowering something is a lot lower.

2) Haven't got a clue

3) Same brand/size as the one I use now but never noticed the two speed thing. There's a lot more you can do with an ironworker than punch holes, the accessories are unbelievable. Just bought a set of oval dies the other day, 7/16" x 1 1/4" CAN$70 for each, round ones I believe are about 1/2 that. Shear blades if I remember right are CAN$1000 give or take and will last a long time...if... you can prevent a$$holes from shearing round stock, hard bolts, hard washers and small pieces of plate that flip up and twist the blade.....Mike

 

[newbury]

Well I found 2
IRON WORKER GEKA HYDRACORP - 100 - S 100 TON
Ironworker

/edit - and

Famco 50 Punch Press Ironworker $800
Punch Press Ironworker $750

http://norfolk.craigslist.org/tls/4321265545.html

 

[robs660]

Check out Edwards Ironworker. I have a 200 ton and a 80 ton in my shop. They make single phase machines and they are well priced. My staff would riot if I ever took them from the shop. Look at the options and what you can use in the ram cavities. They are quote versatile when you start adding accessories.

 

[robstaples]

I have a 55 ton Edwards. It's great. Three stations: punch, cut plate and "angle iron" and a bend station. Also, optional alternatives like notcher. Hydraulic over mechanical... Definitely, from a safety point of view, the mechanical is a rotary momentum and then a slam-bam hope_nothing_was_in_the_way action. (this is the kind I saw used at school) The hydraulic can still hurt you but much slower and will still punch or cut. I think the 3 phase versus 1 phase would just be a motor change. You could probably go to a smaller motor and just have a longer cycle time ( it's a pump power thing). Mine weights about 2500 lbs.. something to acknowledge. I build a "dolly" base for mine so I can roll it around on smooth concrete floor. Pretty High static inertia!! If your floor isn't smooth, get big wheels. Bought mine new. and extra dies.
I've punched aluminum and the machine doesn't know it's there. So far, 1/2" steel with 1" hole and you hear the machine pause, I think, as the pressure builds. Then, bang for hard steel or smush for soft steel.
Fun surprise is the first time you cut "angle Iron". I cut 4x4" 1/4" steel. The pressure builds and then BANG. It cracks/breaks the steel. The whole machine jumps.... kind of. The flat plate cutter starts at one end and the shears the plate. like sheet metal shears. Blaw blaw blaw, obvious I like my machine!

 

[Mark @ Everlast]

I'd recommend an Edwards as well. A lot of options, well made and generally a better buy and good performance with 240V 1 phase.

 

[Arc weld]

Geka is very good ironworker as are most. Edwards have improved a lot over their early models. I have used mechanical and hyd. ironworkers. I'm sure in a 50 ton you can get single phase. Ironworkers have all gone hydraulic. Biggest reason is safety. Mechanical uses a big flywheel and electric clutch to activate. Once you hit the button, there's no stopping it. With hyd. you can stop at any time. For out right production, you can't beat a mechanical though. Hyd. are slow by comparison. Mechanical's have a lot more moving parts and make a clankity clank sound when they're running. Many more attachments are available for hyd. machines. For used just google used ironworkers. If I had to buy one I'd look at a Piranha but like I said most ironworkers are good machines. The rule of thumb for punching holes in steel is never try to punch a smaller hole than the thickness of the steel or you will likely break the punch. So if you want to punch a 1/2" hole in 1" plate it's not going to work.

Should mention that a punch press is not the same as an ironworker.

 

[Stimw]

I have two Scotchman Ironworkers, a 1980 50 ton and a 1981 35 ton. I bought both used.
Both used Ironworkers and Unicorns come up for sale if you look long enough!
Mechanicals are SCARY Dangerous! Most of the older ones are illegal from an OSHA standpoint because they don't have proper guards and safety controls.
Both of my machines are 3 ph and I am running them on single phase with a "Static Converter" that I built for about $45. in parts from instructions on the internet. One converter for both machines and a 15 X 54 Cincinnati Hydrashift Lathe.
My 50 ton is rated for a 1 1/8" hole in 3/4" steel.
I know a guy with an Edwards and it has a pump wine that goes right through me! Also when he punches it has a loud BANG!
My Scotchman just go right through the metal like it's butter with no bang.
If you look on ebay there will be some listed and you can get an idea of what is out there price wise.
Northern Tool lists a couple entry level machines priced reasonably-
ironworker from Northern Tool + Equipment
They are worth every penny for a business and can even pay for their self on one or two jobs!!!