Question for the tractor electricians

[bjcsc]

If I have to use relays, do you have a suggested type/model and vendor?

Any basic Bosch-type relay will work. You can get them at any automotive stores. Some carry the molded male multiplug/pigtail, but that can be hard to find. Shielded spade connectors would work fine, too. If you go the relay route, I made a wiring diagram for you below. The new feed line would be wired directly to the battery.

I don't blame you for changing them. Crappy lighting is worse than no lighting...

 

[mopacman]

If you can mount the relay by one of the lights you can hook the coil wire to whare the lights are hooked now...........Larry

 

[RFB]

bjcsc,

Thank you very much for the drawing. Not trying to be intentionally obtuse, but I am trying to understand the legend.

I see the power coming to switches and relays. I see the existing common chassis ground. Is there a typo/missing connection on the rear switch green line?

Also, if (big if) there is an open/unused position in the fuse block, can that be the power source or is that what you meant by "directly to the battery".

Thanks again for you generous help.


mopacman, No options for that.

 

[SPYDERLK]

bjcsc,
If I have to use relays, do you have a suggested type/model and vendor?

Dont worry about relays unless the switches heat up. Dont forget to check heat at connectors too. Actually the best way to judge quality of a contact, be it in a switch or a connector, is to measure the voltage loss thru the junction. Digital voltmeters are great for this. When the circuit is conducting, by just putting one lead on each side of the connection with the Vm on a sensitve scale you get a measurement of the voltage loss in the junction. By comparing this to other connections, switches, lengths of wire in the same circuit you get a good idea of the connection's figure of merit. Much more sensitive than feeling for heat.
larry

 

[bjcsc]

Is there a typo/missing connection on the rear switch green line?

Yeah, I forgot to finish drawing it. I fixed it.

Also, if (big if) there is an open/unused position in the fuse block, can that be the power source or is that what you meant by "directly to the battery".

If you get lucky enough to find an opening in the fuse block (it's possible as cab tractors often have lots of electrical doo-dads as options) you could certainly go from there with a 20A fuse. You're right, by "directly to the battery" I was speaking more of path vs. literally (but the latter is often necessary)...

 

[DRL]

bjcsc, I don't know if the switches are in series or parallel, but it does not matter. In a correctly designed circuit anything down stream from a fuse should be protected by that fuse. As an example, outlets in your house should be on a 15 amp breaker. There may be 12 or 15 outlets, in parallel, on that circuit and they are all rated at 15 amps. Looking at your drawing it looks fine except you still need 15 amp switches. If for example you developer a short to ground on the orange wire coming out of the rear switch, if the switch is not rated for 15amps it will fry before the fuse can protect it.
DRL

 

[RFB]

DRL,

That is what I (ineptly) tried to say earlier in the post to another gentleman "I do know what the rating is on all of those components: 14.99 amps. Otherwise it would not be fused at 15 Amps."

I was trying say that if something is fused at a certain ampacity, that it seems reasonable to infer that the components are rated at least to that same figure.

 

[mjncad]

Somewhat relevant...... what about LED lights for these work lights? I use them in flashlights etc. with great results and low current draw. Anything like that available?

Although LED's are nothing new, the cost at this time for work lights makes them prohibitive due to companies jumping on the LED bandwagon due to their inherent long life, low heat output, low current draw, and perceived "green" attributes. Check out the cost for LED replacements, especially household incandescent lighting and you will see what I mean. TheLEDLight.com is everything LED. Find loose LEDs, LED controls, LED fixtures, LED light bulbs, LED strips, LED flashlights, UV LED flashlights . and =D Welcome to SurplusLED =D and http://www.lc-led.com/ and LED and Fiber Optic Lighting by Wiedamark and led light, fiber optics, rope light and LEDtronics: Energy-Saving LED Light Bulbs and Lamps for All Industries and Super Bright LEDs

Once LED's become mainstream, then I expect the prices to become more realistic.

 

[mjncad]

Any basic Bosch-type relay will work. You can get them at any automotive stores. Some carry the molded male multiplug/pigtail, but that can be hard to find. Shielded spade connectors would work fine, too. If you go the relay route, I made a wiring diagram for you below. The new feed line would be wired directly to the battery.

I don't blame you for changing them. Crappy lighting is worse than no lighting...

I buy my automotive electrical supplies at Del-City as they have a good selection of stuff that the average auto parts store doesn't carry. Del City - Wiring Products and Professional Electrical Supplies They have a $25 minimum purchase price.

I have other automotive electrical parts web sites; but I haven't bought anything from them.

 

[bjcsc]

bjcsc, I don't know if the switches are in series or parallel, but it does not matter. In a correctly designed circuit anything down stream from a fuse should be protected by that fuse. As an example, outlets in your house should be on a 15 amp breaker. There may be 12 or 15 outlets, in parallel, on that circuit and they are all rated at 15 amps. Looking at your drawing it looks fine except you still need 15 amp switches. If for example you developer a short to ground on the orange wire coming out of the rear switch, if the switch is not rated for 15amps it will fry before the fuse can protect it.

I completely agree with both you and RFB that that is the way it should be. But, we are assuming that Kubota cares about protecting the switch. In some 12V wiring I've dealt with, on some boats I've worked on for example, the switches were rated for the load and not protected by the fuse from a hard ground. They were essentially set up to be "consumable" in the case of a hard ground. In no way do I view that as correct, but that's how it was factory wired. AC outlets have to be rated so the entire load can be carried by any one of them. Kubota would not have the same expectation of one of those switches, unless they're in series. You're correct about a hard ground on the orange wire, but again that diagram assumes the switches are not rated for 15A to begin with and are subject to "frying" from a hard ground as delivered from Kubota.

I think we're all on the same page:
Is it reasonable to assume that the switches are/should be rated for 15A? Yes
Do we know that for sure? No

If I was RFB, I would try to research the switch and see what I could find about it: rating, price, availability. If they're rated for 15A, I'd just replace the fixtures with the new and leave everything else as is. If I couldn't find the rating, but the switches were cheap and easy to get/replace, I'd do the same thing and check them as SPYDERLK mentioned. If they failed the check, then I'd wire them with relays as in my diagram.

 

[RFB]

I just wanted to take a minute to thank you guys for the considered counsel. The non-pejorative discussion is a refreshing, and the reasoned debate has provided me with knowledge and a logical direction.

thank you Sirs.

 

[DRL]

AAAHHH, I love it when we all get on the same page.
Just had an idea(or a brain fart). If you wire it with relays as per BJCSC's drawing you will only be drawing the trigger wire current through the switches, an amp or less. Just replace the 15 amp fuse with maybe a 2 amp fuse, then everyone will be happy. Switches will be protected even if they are rated at 5 amps.
DRL

 

[beefeater]

RFB,

Your goal is to improve the performance of your tractor's worklights withouts screwing up the existing factory wiring and/or having to rewire everything.

Solution- replace them all with 35 watt HID worklights. This should not overtax your electrical system and provide you with a huge increase in light output.

Problem-cost.

Beef

 

[RFB]

Beef,

I had thought of that option, but cost for those is way beyond what I wanted to spend for lighting. Unless you know of much less expensive alternatives, all of the HID products I have seen are in the multiple-hundred$ for lights.

 

[beefeater]

There are a bunch or HID worklight/offroad manufacturers out there now. They put out so much light, you probably really only need one for the front and one for the rear.

I have a rechargeable, hand held HID flashlight made by Acro. The output is truly unbelievable.

The additional cost is well worth it, if you need it. Your tractor was not inexpensive, and the upgrade is reasonable, relatively speaking.

 

[JoeL4330]

Me, I would simply use a "double throw" switch (break before make) center-off and have either the two front, or the two rears on, reasoning that I can only look/go in one direction. If, however, you are a constant head-turner, then I would use the same switch but use six new lights so that I had 2F1R or 2R1F depending on where I was going/looking. ...or, since they are already mounted, I might use the pairs of current lights as the "opposite direction" light.

 

[RFB]

Joel,

I appreciate the thought, but my need for front and rear light is absolute. The areas I work in have zero ambient light. There are no street lights closer than 5 miles or so. When its dark here, it is like a black hole.

The other issue is I do need all front and rears on for the winter tasks of snow clearing. Lots of back & forth FEL activities in close proximities to drop-offs and other hazards. Certain areas are one chance between on-road and Mr. Toad's Wild Ride.

Good front and rears will do fine, but the 27 watt OEM Kubota candles don't make it.

 

[beefeater]

Vision X HID 4400 35 watt Floods.

4.7" x 4.2" x 5"

3.8 amp draw

12 volts

Internal ballast Plug and Play install

$475 per pair. You've got to pay, if you want to play.

Done. Problem solved. Let me know how they work.

 

[patrick_g]

Somehow I am reminded of the two gray haired ladies at the hardware store where the one needs to buy a replacement screw-in fuse for her old fashioned fuse box. She starts to get the 15 amp version as that is what burned out but her friend advised her that she should get the 30 amp version because you get twice the amps for the same price!

It is not good practice to arbitrarily change out a fuse or circuit breaker to a larger value when the rest of the components were not engineered for higher current. Whether or not you will "get away" with it is anyone's guess. Like walking across the street without looking either way, you may make it, or maybe not, but in general it is risky practice.

The recommendations to wire the current wires feeding the current lights to instead power the coil(s) of a light control relay(s) and let the relay contacts provide power to the new lights through appropriately sized wire, is a sure kill. It is a good, safe, and not risky approach.

The suggestion to verify the alternator can safely keep up with the lights is another basic practical step worth taking. If it can't, then use the suggestion made to power the front and rear lights via a double throw switch and only light fronts or rears not both at the same time. This will cut the alternator load in half (assuming equal draw for front and rear lights.) If you put the double throw switch in the wires going to the relay coils the switch can be rated for lower current and therefore cheaper and probably smaller than if in the wires going to the lights. A lighted switch is a good idea so it is super easy to find in the dark.

Please post your final setup and how it worked out for you. My Kubota came with lights fore and aft but I may be looking to replace them with brighter lights and am essentially facing the same questions you are having to resolve.

Luckily I have been through all this on dune buggies and off road trucks for several years. If you really really want the light conversion to just work and not be a source of maint, melted wire bundles, and hassles, don't put in a bigger fuse and use the OEM wires and switches to carry the new load. For every person that got away with that, at least temporarily, there are several others with fried wires and problems much bigger than the work of doing it right the first time. I'd hate to fry the original wiring of a new tractor (or any tractor for that matter.)

Pat