PTO pump, lake to 200 gallon plus container

[boggen]

i am wanting to find a cheap PTO pump. that can suck water up from lake to water tank (20 to 25 vertical feet difference) and then turn some valves and have PTO pump and 200 gallon tank, be turned into a spot sprayer. (hand gun with about 50 to 100 feet of hose) ((no need for a booms))

nearest areas for 110V electricity is over 1000 plus feet. i do have generator, but i do not want to carry around sump pump and extension cords. plus haul generator out. just to get tank filled up.

the tractor is an allis chalmers C with 6V setup. being able to use a 12V to 110V cigarette lighter converter, is a no go to run a sump pump. and being able to use a generic 12V pump is also out....

i do NOT want a diaphragm pump. my luck i would have to buy constant diaphragm replacements every year or 2.

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i have looked at roller pumps, but i have not found any sort of "specs" that state "self priming" and distance it can pull water up into them.

i have a old 220V 2HP i want to say hayward pool pump. i could pull wet end off possibly, not sure if wet end would allow me to connect to PTO shaft or not though. ((not sure if shaft coming out of motor goes straight into wet end, or if there is a coupler between shaft on motor and wet end))

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blah blah details....

wanting to water various plants / trees, and also use as a sprayer, to spray weed killer on fence lines, and some other unwanted plants (multi flower rose bushes) around the farm.

 

[Groo]

those little gas pumps are the ticket for what you want.

 

[boggen]

thanks Groo!

found these 3 pumps with suction head of 20 to 23 feet :licking:

Central Machinery 1-1/2" Clear Water Pump with 2.5 HP Gas Engine | Bargains and Buyouts

Earthquake - 38 GPM (1") Water Pump

[ame=http://www.amazon.com/2-5hp-Trash-Stroke-3000rpm-Torque/dp/B005DTUON6]Amazon.com: 2.5hp Gas Simi Trash Water Pump 4 Stroke 3000rpm Torque: Automotive[/ame]

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though little gas engine water pump hhmmsss. not sure what other uses i would have for it. beyond for the sprayer.

no real need for a gas water pump, for the liner ponds, already have backup built for them. and no need to use pump to drain anything...

well is for most part never ran dry, beyond me pumping more water out of it in a day than it can supply. and went back to normal after a day. so no need to deal with "trucking water in"

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be nice to find just the "wet end" and some sort of "geared" or pully setup. to change from 540 rpm PTO, to 3600 RPMs. that just slips onto PTO shaft, and a chain or 2 that goes down to draw bar to keep pump from spinning.

 

[soilsailor]

I can confirm that a roller pump is self-priming. (At least a brand new pump with good seals is self priming. )

I just built something similar to what you are wanting for irrigating our a few fruit trees and garden. We have a creek on the property but haven't drilled a well or run rural water yet...

My setup uses a Hypro 7650 (or 7560, I can't remember the model number off the top of my head) roller pump. I used a sump pump hose (~ 2") with a foot valve for my suction line. I made a PVC strainer by drilling a series of holes in a 10 inch long piece of PVC that I threaded onto the end of the foot valve.

I didn't realize it at the time I designed the plumbing that the pump was self-priming, so I set up my manifold to route water back into the suction line to prime the pump. The foot valve was there to keep whatever water was left from the last 'tank fill' operation so I wouldn't have to re-prime each time.

It turns out that the roller can draw the water up at least 8 feet from the creek to where I have the tractor located with a complete empty suction line.

I just used the thing yesterday on it's maiden voyage, worked pretty slick. I'll try and get some pictures for you the next time I'm out at the farm. (Not living out there yet.)

By the way, I sourced the pump at my locale Theisens store for about $125.00. Rated capacity at 540 RPM is about 12 GPM. (Not the fastest thing in the world, but functional.)

 

[Stimw]

I bought one of the Harbor Freight 2" gas pumps for $200.00 a few years ago to jet down a shallow well for my garden and it really works great! The pump seems to have about the same (very good) volume at a fast idle as it does sped up too. Engine looks like a Honda knock-off.
I would expect you would be paying close to that for a pump and then have to buy the set up for a PTO.
The switch over plumbing from suction to pressure is very simple with a couple ball valves and some PVC fittings.

 

[boggen]

I bought one of the Harbor Freight 2" gas pumps for $200.00 a few years ago to jet down a shallow well for my garden and it really works great! The pump seems to have about the same (very good) volume at a fast idle as it does sped up too. Engine looks like a Honda knock-off.
I would expect you would be paying close to that for a pump and then have to buy the set up for a PTO.
The switch over plumbing from suction to pressure is very simple with a couple ball valves and some PVC fittings.

if i end up going with a gas water pump, with shut off head of around 50 to 70 feet. 1 PSI = 2.31 feet of H2O (water). so 21 to 30PSI and just using the setup as a spot sprayer. (no booms) i could live with, that. without need for a PTO pump that produces higher PSI. it is not like i am trying to create a pressure washer jet stream of water shooting 50 feet away. or trying to push water through "misters" that have a high friction loss. but perhaps through a garden hose nozzle.

hhmmmssss

suction line from lake -> 3 way valve (a)
suction line from tank -> 3 way valve (a)
3 way valve (a) -> pump inlet -> 3 way valve (b)
3 way valve (b) -> pressure gauge -> to hand gun / garden hose nozzle
3 way valve (b) -> back to tank

adjust 3 way valve (a) to switch between filling tank, or pumping water out of tank.
adjust 3 way valve (b) to adjust amount of GPH (gallons per hour) of water, going to spray gun, and sending excess to tank, or turned all to the tank to fill tank.

rubs chin, might need to use "gate valves" like an outdoor faucet valves instead of 3 way valve (b) for fine tuning pressure / GPH of water. then again 3 way valve might be easier to quickly grab a handle to turn on/off flow of water coming out of the spray gun / garden hose nozzle.

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off to do some more searching, to find that elusive PTO pump. that has a high suction head for sucking water out of lake, and then produces higher PSI when used as a spot sprayer.

 

[weedpharma]

You state you want to suck water up 20ft+. This is a large distance to suck water up a dry pipe. You are trying to create a vacuum sufficient to lift a 20ft column of water.

If you have to have the pump at the top, I would suggest a one way valve at the bottom so the pipe remains filled. This way you only need to suck from the top of the pipe to the pump. You are still trying to lift a 20ft column.

If you can put the pump at the low end and pump up, you will get better results. You will only have to lift a couple of feet (to prime) and push the rest.

Weedpharma

 

[Stimw]

You talk about "3 way valves". As I see it you only need 3 regular ball valves.
1. valve to shut off pump intake from lake
2. valve to open from bottom of tank to pump intake
3. valve to shut off pump output to tank (could be ajusted for relief back to tank)
Hose connection before #3 valve.
Can also use PVC for pickup from lake with a foot valve to hold prime and quick connection (short hose with clamps) for pump.

 

[Groo]

The beauty of a small gas powered pump is that it can be set up much closer to the water than the tractor can get easily.

getting a suction head much over 20' is very difficult. Even if you could create a perfect vacuum, the max theroetical suction head is only about 33', but the water would boil before you managed that. Adding more power doesn't matter.
try to keep the suction head under 10' if you can.

 

[boggen]

been turning things over and over in my mind trying to come up with easy solution... that keeps me at just a single water pump, that does not require me to unhook or move the pump.

to get around "suction" and priming the line automatically with just use of pump.

fill the tank itself with say 15 gallons of water at house with garden hose. then go to lake and stream, and un ravel the suction line from tank to lake. on end that goes into the lake, place a intake screen and a check valve.

but the other end have a manifold setup. so i could "drain" water out of the tank, down into the suction line from lake. then switch a couple valves to switch over from tank to pump inlet. and have a ready set go. to start pumping water, with suction line already primed.

i really can not use a "garden" hose as a suction line, with the line collapsing on itself. so thinking about using black plastic poly pipe. and cut the pipe into sections with quick connects on each end. say 5 to 8 feet in length each section. and make a mini "pipe hanger rack" on the sprayer. to place suction hose, when not in use.

on a side note, first thought was to use generic sch 40 pvc pipe, and male/female threaded adapters, but i could see myself "cursing" the channel locks and/or pipe wrench trying to get things screwed/unscrewed. and then dealing with un-even ground between tank and lake. poly pipe being some what flexible should work out nicely.

i am thinking 1" inside diameter pipe. i would hope be large enough diameter to allow air to float up and into tank and allow water down into the suction line.

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other words to above....


wye A -> valve -> suction line -> check valve -> intake screen -> lake
wye A -> valve -> lowest point on tank (drain)
wye A -> wye B
wye B -> valve -> slightly higher outlet on tank. so i do not run tank completely dry if i am going to need multi refills. ((allows to re prime suction line with water left in bottom of tank))
wye B -> inlet on pump

pump outlet -> wye C -> valve -> return to tank
wye C -> valve -> spray gun or end of hose

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as long as the "intake screen" does not clog and i keep friction loss down to min, on inlet side of pump, i am hoping i do not get into "cavitation" of the pump. (cavitation = suction so strong air is pulled out of the water)

and with suction line and pump being primed with water, i should be ok i would hope.

though i will most likely come out some place on tank or a manifold. and go with another valve, and then enlarge up to 4 or 6" pvc pipe. so i have a funnel, to make it easy to use 5 gallon bucket to prime the suction line.

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i still want a valve that would go to spray gun. i may end up disconnecting spray gun, for just end of hose. to water plants / trees without flattening them into the ground.

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on a different note. out in shed today, and looked at rear end of the allis Chalmers, and it never occurred to me, i could mount a water pump with a pulley on it, and run it to the pulley the belly mower runs off of. the pulley is right there, and nothing in the way. and off set enough i think i might be able to mount something without interference for the hook up of the little 2 wheel wagon for spray rig.

will need to get a RPM gauge. to double check RPMs for the pulley, and diameter before getting pulley for wet end of a water pump.