Private school, Home schooling, etc.

Will_C · Aug 19, 2002

As a public school teacher and coach, I have truly enjoyed reading this discussion. I appreciate the points made by all, and you people could publish this as a primer for parents debating the issue with their own children's educational choices.
Trev, I had to sit in classes with people such as the student you talked about. And yes, they do speak as they write!!!!
Will
P.S. Although I would be thrown out of the teacher's union for saying this, I do realize and understand the benefits of home and private schooling.

DVerbarg · Aug 20, 2002

This is a fascinating discussion to watch unfold and holds particular interest for me as a product of private and home schooling and now as a parent educating our children at home.

Both Will & Bob make some good additional points. First, yes, there is factual evidence, that on the whole, the more formal education one has, the higher their income. Doesn't mean a HS dropout can't become a millionaire, it just means his chances are substantially reduced. Many companies hire new entry level employees straight out of college and refuse to even consider those without a formal college education (and even go as far as to only hire from specific institutions.) Is this "right?" Maybe - Maybe not. Doesn't matter though - that is the fact, and by excluding a degree from a formal institution (even if you in your heart believe it isn't worth the paper it is written on), the reality is that there will be "doors locked shut" for that person.

Its a shame that companies use a piece of paper as a major criteria for determining the potential value to an organization. My lack of a college diploma has been a slight detriment, in terms of opening doors, yet I have never let that keep me from pursuing my goals and interests. Could I earn more with a degree? I doubt it as earnings are on par or higher then that of many of my coworkers, who all have masters. At times I wish I understood more and had attended college, yet realize that those topics that would be beneficial to me now are not the same topics/courses I had considered upon completion of high school. Maybe I'll go back to school once my kids are grown or when "retirement" rolls around. Don't want cobwebs to form. /w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif

RanchMan · Aug 20, 2002

DVerbarg-

I'm glad that folks seem to be "getting something" out of this discussion. (and everyone is remaining civil to boot! /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif)

Again, I just want to reiterate that both Kucklehead & I are "painting in broad strokes" when it comes to our statements. While it is true that a higher education is no guarantee of a bigger salary than one's co-workers (e.g. your situation), on the whole, that is really the exception and not the rule. (Again, the <A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.businessknowhow.com/career/edudollar.htm>statistical evidence</A> backs this up.) Additionally as you look at the executive ranks of most companies, very few individuals do not have a university education. Yes, the individual's personal characteristics play a huge role in "how far they go" (i.e. drive, desire, etc.), but without knowledge (all else being equal), these "positive" characteristics can not overcome the lack of education compared to the learned "equivalent" individual.

Its a shame that companies use a piece of paper as a major criteria for determining the potential value to an organization. 

I understand where you're coming from, and I've never been one to believe that "grades" are the all-important "end all/be all" when making such a determination. But, I do not so readily dismiss a company (or individual for that matter) wanting to hire someone based on their attending an institution of higher learning.

The reason a lot of companies place such an importance on a diploma & collegiate experience is that in order for the individual to obtain the parchment, they must complete certain activities/classes. A lot of these classes do a fair job of mimicking what type of encounters they would have in the "real world job" that the prospective business is soliciting for. It's the old "chicken & the egg" of "How do I get experience without having a job - how do I get a job without having experience?"

For example, say in the computer field (something I see you’re familiar with /w3tcompact/icons/wink.gif), a student who has, as part of the required curriculum of the institution, had classes in Sys. Dev. Live Cycle and Implementation. Such classes often include class projects, and therefore the student has had a simulation of what they would encounter working for the typical computer consulting company. (No, this isn't the same as someone with 5 years of experience, but again, we're talking entry level position in this example.)

For a young entry-level person in the computer consulting/programming/development field, while no guarantee that the potential employee will "work out," if the individual has worked in a group on such tasks before (e.g. class projects) and they were successful (again, they have the diploma to prove "success"), then they have established a "track record" of being able to work in such an environment. A "home college" graduate who never had to work with others on this type of task, while they may be successful, has nothing to "back it up" - they’ve proven nothing. It's all a probability equation.

As a businessman, it is one’s duty to try and get the best, most effective person for the job in question. Do I "roll the dice" on an individual where I have absolutely no understanding of how "strict" the education was, (no “real” verification as to how well the student really did -- i.e. the specter of nepotism starts to come in to play), and the “graduate” has never even simulated the type of work they are being hired for, OR do I go with someone who has proven themselves to a degree by attending a school where I am very familiar with the concepts taught, the standards imposed, the faculty, and a pattern has been established regarding how many individuals from that institution are retained by my company and continue to add value? “Bird in the hand or two in the bush? - and are there really two in that bush....?” /w3tcompact/icons/hmm.gif

At a time when everyone seems to be clamoring for CEO's "Heads on a pike" due to shareholder loss (even when GAAP is followed - <not talking about the fraudulent activities that have gone on>), do I, as a steward of the company, increase shareholder risk by hiring the "unknown" home schoolers or help to reduce the risk (i.e. eliminate a portion of the unknowns) by going with the university grads?

If the whole business aspect doesn’t make the point, I’d be curious how many advocating collegiate “home schooling” would choose the home school grad over the university grad in a number of areas. Would they choose the “home schooled” surgeon? What if they were on trial for murder? Forget the law school grad and go for the one who essentially taught themselves? What about if “fluffy” has a medical issue - go with the HS vet?

Again, please understand I’m not saying that someone who is home schooled at the college level can’t ever be “successful” or “happy” or “good.” But, beyond the legal requirement to hold a degree from an accredited university a lot of professions require in order to practice, if one wishes to advance to certain positions, a degree is required. Agree with the methodology or disagree with it, the fact remains that's the way the things work. Yep, some "good folks" are "left out in the cold" - but risks (not to mention the financial requirements of the hiring process) are substantially reduced. After all, the home school college student (just as someone who chooses not to go to college at all) should understand the repercussions of their choice and actions - (personal responsibility any one?)

Funny thing is I kindof see an irony in that I believe a lot of those who would advocate home school at the college level would probably say that “their” kid should get a chance or be “given a break” in order to get their foot in the door to obtain a job, while at the same time, I feel a lot of these folks believe strongly against nepotism, socialistic doctrine, and are in favor of reducing the risk of their retirement investments decreasing in value due to unnecessary risks.

I guess what it all boils down to is that companies don't place value on the "paper" the university grad has, they put value on the experience and track record the individual has proven through their actions. The "paper" is just the proof it was done.

Maybe I’ll go back to school... 

Hey, Why not? Could be a lot of fun! (I assume you won’t attend TOO many frat parties though! /w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif) Personally I always enjoyed learning something new, and despite some of the other views expressed, I believe college is a great place to “expand one’s horizons.”

Chuck52 · Aug 20, 2002

Mark,

One thing to consider when thinking about the cost of a college education is the availability of scholarships. I think Ranchman is certainly correct in stating that anyone can afford to go to college these days, if he is selective about the school and takes advantage of scholarships, loans, and work-study programs that are widely available. However, I do wonder if a home-schooled child might be at a disadvantage when it comes to getting the scholarships. My son qualified for free tuition at all the state universities in Missouri because of his class standing and ACT scores. Perhaps there are ways in some states to get around the class standing part for home-schooled kids....it would seem to me that there should be a mechanism. Missouri has a good program of scholarships for in-state students, and is also pretty liberal in giving good out-of-state students support. While looking for an appropriate school for our son, we checked out one of the branch campuses of the University of Wisconsin. Wisconsin seemed much less generous to out-of-staters, and such programs no doubt vary significantly form state to state. As you say, not everyone needs to go to college, but it might be wise to try to determine how home schooling, all the way through high school, can affect access to these resources.

Chuck

knucklehead · Aug 20, 2002

Hi, Chuck! Glad you chimed in about college. I was wondering if you would.

We've been thinking about scholarships, too. We assume there are plenty of scholarships out there - and are setting ourselves up, debtwise, to help (not pay for it all). I certainly enjoyed my experience, and still have warm memories of campus life - once I figured out why I was there. I was stirring the pot a little with that value comment. I notheless have seen a fairly steep price climb - haven't done the "loaf of bread" economic comparision, but it seems a long way from $3200/year to $18000/year in 20 years, for tuition, room, & board at our State University.

I appreciate all of the comments on value. One of the value issues we've thought about includes initial technical training (because we notice electricians, plumbers, etc. are still busy), as noted earlier in this thread. Although I agree with the comments about earning power differences and the tendency of employers to view pedigrees more highly, there are several technical fields where very good wages can be made. Another idea is to be multi technical, or have several "majors". It seems that a diverse (Gawd, I love that word nowadays) education would be more valuable from several perspectives, these days.

TAB · Aug 20, 2002

Mark, if you look at the skilled trades you'll see a pretty good and stable demand. Students I have get basic training from me and then go on to apprenticeship in the real world. I have past students that are plumbers and masons making 50 to 70 K per year and like their job. Most of the carpenters are only in the 50s, but some are more. I have quite a few that decide to go school (college) after a few years in the field and become construction managers. One owens a multi million dollar business. Not bad for a non college bound curriculum, but more physical work.

DVerbarg · Aug 20, 2002

The reason a lot of companies place such an importance on a diploma & collegiate experience is that in order for the individual to obtain the parchment, they must complete certain activities/classes. A lot of these classes do a fair job of mimicking what type of encounters they would have in the "real world job" that the prospective business is soliciting for. It's the old "chicken & the egg" of "How do I get experience without having a job - how do I get a job without having experience?"

Good point. If the hiring choice was between two people who just completed a college education, one from an accredited institution and the other using a home-brewed and unknown methodology then I would totally concur. However, if the "uncolleged" individual had actually spent their four years of time by working their way up from the bottom of an organization while doing studies on the side then the comparison would, in my opinion as a past business owner, be a much harder decision as, to your point, there is now simulated experience vs actual experience.

Like you pointed out there are professions where there is a need for individuals to pass exams/certifications in order to provide a level of protection to the public (e.g. - doctors, lawyers, engineers, etc). Totally understand the need for this certification but sometimes think that too much trust is placed on the degree. The apprenticeship model from the crafts/trades I feel would be a great alternative to the typical college path. Yes, certain business areas, such as engineering, already successfully use the "coop" model, just needs more expansion into other areas.

While it is true that a higher education is no guarantee of a bigger salary than one's co-workers (e.g. your situation), on the whole, that is really the exception and not the rule. (Again, the statistical evidence backs this up.)

It would be interesting to view the stats with the addition of a ranking of the "individual's drive" factor, broken down by industry classification. I don't doubt the statistics, just challenge the underlying assumption that because this has been the past trend it will be the future trend. If enough people, the majority, believe it to be true then our actions as individuals will continue to be the driving factor behind the continuance of this trend.

Personally I would think that if someone wanted to "home-school" college they would be better off utilizing one of the distance learning courses rather then "brewing" their own for the "unknown" factor you raised.

In my past years of supervising, hiring and firing individuals I would admit that I have had only one person without a college education work for me. (1 out of a dozen or so) I wanted people with drive and most of the "un-college" educated people did not have the drive. Most of the "drive" was found with people who were driven to get an education and their grades indicated that drive. Found one non-college individual who had the drive and our interview, testing and review of their past project work indicated a level of content and concept mastery above typical levels for that age. He home-brewed his education, and appeared to have invested rather significantly and also obtained third-party certifications.

...do I, as a steward of the company, increase shareholder risk by hiring the "unknown" home schoolers or help to reduce the risk (i.e. eliminate a portion of the unknowns) by going with the university grads?

Every company that is successful takes risks. Its just a matter of understanding the risks and having a plan to compensate. The insurance industry is fascinating. Scores of underwriters and actuaries studying, analyzing and measuring risks. Knowing the variables well enough to take the calculated gambles. Perhaps as a product of home schooling, having home schooled friends who did well and others not as well, maybe there are less unknown variables for me. Like someone who knows the individual reputations of colleges and their strengths and weaknesses I have found that many home schooling curricula have their own unique strengths and weaknesses.

RanchMan · Aug 21, 2002

It appears we are much closer to thinking on the same "wavelength" than it first appeared. /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif Good points - I can't really find to many points of contention!

As you say, track record is key -- someone having X years experience "climbing the ladder" has "proven" their abilities. Of course, they most likely had to start several "rungs" lower on their "climb" than the college grad. The problem lies in the existence of those "pre-entry" level positions - e.g. "Company X" may simply not have any (or have them in volume). Going back to the MIS career model, "Company X" may have "entry level" positions that start at the design/coding skill set and not have something lower to offer a high school grad that would allow them to "work their way up." 'Course our proverbial HS grad could "job bounce," but that too adds some issues (e.g. raises questions about longevity of the employee's "loyalty", etc.)

...but sometimes think that too much trust is placed on the degree. 

Absolutely! Again, a diploma is not the end-all/be-all, and just because someone has it, doesn't mean they are necessarily "good." College experience/diploma is simply a piece of the overall evidentiary puzzle used in evaluating if someone would be a good "fit" for a job.

It would be interesting to view the stats with the addition of a ranking of the "individual's drive" factor, broken down by industry classification

That would be interesting - There are some standardized "drive factor" models that a lot of HR departments use, but I've yet to see a "definitive" model. Most of them use a combination of personality factors correlated to "success" within the company. Since there is such a variation in companies out there, someone who would show a high "drive factor" at "Company X" may not be successful/show a high "drive factor" at "Company Y." Ahh, the problems associated with standardization when it comes to psychological models! /w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif

Yes, certain business areas, such as engineering, already successfully use the "coop" model, just needs more expansion into other areas.

Funny you mentioned co-op when you did, as I was thinking about it when I was reading earlier in the paragraph. I think the co-op model of education is a fantastic - for lots of reasons. Fortunately cooperative education has continued to grow and there are tons of opportunities way beyond the stereotypical fields of yesteryear. (<A target="_blank" HREF=http://co-opweb.tamu.edu/s_info.html-ssi>Here's </A> a link to my alma mater's co-op program that has info if anyone out there is curious).

Most of the "drive" was found with people who were driven to get an education and their grades indicated that drive. Found one non-college individual who had the drive and our interview, testing and review of their past project work indicated a level of content and concept mastery above typical levels for that age.

Yea - I understand. Assuming no legal requirement for a degree, the diploma, as you point out, serves as a "barometer" of traits. Believe me, there are TONS of "new grads" I've interviewed that, while having a diploma, couldn't measure up in other areas - hence they don't work for me. No, a diploma is just a piece of the puzzle (but an important piece.)

Every company that is successful takes risks. Its just a matter of understanding the risks and having a plan to compensate. 

Very true. My point was really aimed at "risk reduction" instead of "risk elimination" and "cost reduction" vs. "cost elimination." If a company goes to recruit at "University X," they can be far more efficient - see a larger quantity of people and reduce recruitment costs associated with each new employee. A lot of companies even have gone to some pretty in depth psychological analysis to see if the employee is "likely" to "work out" in the long term. The single interview is also becoming a thing of the past - for entry level folks this is often drawn out to 3, 4, or even 5 - all in the name of "risk reduction." (after all if you are going to dump 5-15K in additional training per year per employee, you don't want your "investment" walking out the door to go to your competitor.)

Like someone who knows the individual reputations of colleges and their strengths and weaknesses I have found that many home schooling curricula have their own unique strengths and weaknesses. 

Certainly makes sense. I just worry about the home schooled folks that believe they will have the same opportunities open to them as someone with a degree from an accredited college. Not saying HS folks can't be "successful," just saying their choices will be more limited and they will have a much more difficult time on the whole because they will have to "buck the system." (It's hard enough to compete with everyone else as it is without having the additional "issues" associated with home school.)

knucklehead · Aug 22, 2002

Great insights, guys

I've been at work for a few days and have not really had enough time to follow this thread and respond intelligently. Or maybe that never happens with me /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

I agree with your closing statements, Ranchman, about barriers - real or imagined - that "alternatively educated" people may face (whether homeschooled, not having a degree, etc.). I am becoming very interested in the HR perspective on "drive". I'm happy to hear that it is a factor in the hiring process, and not just driven by pedigree. Another thing to coinsider is the increase in retrained people reentering the worlkforce - a very large and non traditional group, many without degrees other than those obtained as part of the retraining process.

We assume that other alternatively educated folks from various sources will have preceeded us by enough to positively influence and broaden the perspective of traditionally oriented companies. We've got examples of alternatively educated people in our company who are excelling. Reputation is important. We hope to contribute to the reputation already well understood by more open minded companies that self learners are self starters, creative thinkers, and maintain high standards in the workplace.

I think the key is to set and maintain high standards of performance, and we are trying to cultivate that in our boys, along with a balanced approach to life, meaning "it ain't all work". One of the reasons we decided to "hitch horses" with <A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.narsonline.com>NARS</A> was to obtain objective counsel in acedemic things, and to also produce an objective record of their last few years of education. It ocurred to us that there could be prejudice on our parts, and far more on the parts of admission staff as well as potential employers, if the acedemic records presented were created and maintained solely by us as parents.

Regarding drive, and education, we see that in my area of work regularly. There appear to be more (non-degreed people with a lot of drive) here than in other areas, but our department is kind of the place where some with drive can advance into from field work, so we may see more than the normal population contains. Again, however, it all comes down to individual performance; personal responsibility is always where a multitude of issues settle, it seems.

I also believe that there may be a long term trend (a generation or two) toward a workforce that includes more multi-talented individuals, as companies continue to go through the labor pains of finding a balance between the industrial age and the information age. It is my belief that our type of education will be more like the future norm, in some form. In fact, we may even see the ultimate demise of the centralized university, as it appears today (we are seeing this already, IMHO). I think, at the risk of slipping into the rant mode again, that the educational institutions may be gradually falling behind, and find that they need to adapt and change more quickly to meet the need of the individual student, and properly respond to the changes in business.

Which gets us into yet another philisophical area: since when did academia become the slave of business? Being practical minded, I understand the value of a "career shaped" education. But I thought education was for the enrichment and broadening of the student, not to produce fuel and fodder for the machine of industry. As I hope my earlier posts would indicate, it is the individual that concerns me; my problems with any institution, whether the public school, the workplace, or the local church, always are with the response to and care of individuals. My understanding of my responsibility as a parent is to shepherd my kids by discovering and nurturing their natural abilities, and making sure they are equipped to function as responsible members of creation & society. My understanding of the way we should run our society, and therefore the workplace, is the same. I do not think the balanced recognition of the worth of the individual in the workplace is counterproductive; in fact I believe it is a vast untapped source of creativity and wealth, both monetary and social. As a small aside, I believe most of our problems stem from the rejection of Godly truth, which is where my perspective originates. In more secular terms, I tend to disagree with the increased emphasis in education toward fitting people into jobs - I have always disagreed with the intrusion of business into public school. I see it as the antisthesis of creative thinking, and ultimately a "drive killer", as individual talents get compressed and molded into filling the "quotas" required in the workforce.

Sounds a little "Commie" on the face of it, don't it? Although it was and is the practice of Communist societies to disregard the individual completely. /w3tcompact/icons/grin.gif

I strongly believe it is the creativity of the individual that advances business (and society), and not mere effort. I can't help but think of some of the great names of industry, education, and theology as I write. They were not followers. Are we increasingly breeding followers in the name of expediency?

RanchMan · Aug 22, 2002

Yea Knucklehead, sometimes threads seem to advance pretty quickly (I have to play catch up too sometimes!) /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif Unfortunately I think this is probably my longest reply yet, so please bear with me..../w3tcompact/icons/sad.gif

I'm happy to hear that it is a factor in the hiring process, and not just driven by pedigree.

Yea, this has been a trend in the last decade or so. A large portion of the major corporations out there have come to the realization that grades/diploma aren't the only things to consider and an "straight 'A' student" may not be successful in their particular business environment, hence all the customized psychological hiring process they've developed to help them pick the "right" employees. Of course, grades & classes do matter, just have their relative importance (don't know too many engineering firms that regularly hire kids (to be engineers) who failed calculus repeatedly and wound up getting a liberal arts diploma instead of an engineering degree.) Not sure I'd want to fly on a plane, drive a car, cross a bridge, etc. where the engineers on the project couldn't do the required math correctly - call me "intolerant" I suppose. /w3tcompact/icons/wink.gif

Another thing to coinsider is the increase in retrained people reentering the worlkforce...many without degrees other than those obtained as part of the retraining process.

I don't disagree that people can certainly be retrained and become valued, contributing members of a company. If one is wishing to advance within the same career path though, any one having to be "retrained" will be "behind the curve" regarding advancement up the ladder. Yes, you can "teach an old dog new tricks," but if one is trying to advance in the shortest possible time (along with advance their salary more quickly), having to stop, redirect, and "start at square 1" will definitely slow them down.

Reputation is important. We hope to contribute to the reputation already well understood by more open minded companies that self learners are self starters, creative thinkers, and maintain high standards in the workplace.

I understand where you're coming from, and some companies will "flirt" with hiring home school individuals until a positive pattern is proven. Again, I think a big assumption is sneaking in -- that every home school parent invokes strict/quality education. Just because a parent loves/cares for their child doesn't mean they are willing to be a strict disciplinarian or strict educator. I see a LOT of children who, though I KNOW their parents "love them to death," refuse to invoke even minor amounts of discipline and/or the parent buys them every toy under the sun because "Johnny wants it and I love him."

Again, I'm not saying every (or even the majority) of HS parents/teachers are this way, but due to the natural bias associated with parent & their kids, the chances of some type of subterfuge exists. (EVERY parent think's their child is "better/sweeter/kinder/more intelligent/etc." than other kids.) I personally believe the "typical" HS parent/teacher is more likely to "let things slide" due to this "biological" connection. Again, not everyone, just a view based on observations.

Another aspect is that your statement implies (intended or not) a mutual exclusivity - that "self learners, self starters, creative thinkers" are characteristics unique in home school kids and not the typical college grad. I'd argue the typical college grad has these very characteristics - after all it takes work to get a diploma - it isn't just "given" to anyone who wants it. Does the diploma guarantee these characteristics are at the level a particular employer is seeking? Nope - but that’s where the psychological interviewing discussed earlier helps further determine the "level" of these characteristics.

I think the key is to set and maintain high standards of performance, 

Yep. For the "typical" company seeking recruits, it is far easier to understand which universities are maintaining "high standards" vs. those or who do not or spend time "researching" each individual home school "teacher" to see if they do/do not meet their standards of education. Again, when we are talking job placement and corporate efficiencies, it simply is more efficient to go to the campus.

...a balanced approach to life, meaning "it ain't all work".

I completely agree - work should be a "part of life" not someone’s "entire life." But just because one is successful in their "work life" doesn't mean they are excluded from being "successful" in their family life or spiritual life.

...if the acedemic records presented were created and maintained solely by us as parents. 

I think this is a wise move, but again, speaking at the college level, I seriously doubt the vast majority of companies will put the same "stock" in such home school correspondence based education at they would a regular accredited university. Again, depends on the goal/reason for attending college.

...since when did academia become the slave of business? 

/w3tcompact/icons/hmm.gif I admit I kindof find your statement confusing because it seemed initially you had, in your very first message on this thread, advocated "formal vocational (aka technical) training" . Going on, you basically implied (albeit tongue-in-cheek) you see very little value in learning things beyond the items necessary to competently do one’s job with the whole “I tell others that they can then freely pursue the college training of their dreams, and become electricians, cooks or carpenters with a superior ability to discuss pre-cambrian archaeology or medival art. /w3tcompact/icons/eyes.gif 

So, based on your earlier post it would seem that the whole "mold the person to fit a job" aspect you would get with a degree (be it from a university of from a technical school) would, in your book be a "good thing." However, here, the implication is that focusing on aspects that "business" values, gearing an education toward "job placement" and not just for "education's sake" is bad.

For as long as I can remember, one of the main reasons someone went to college was to "get a better job." Where you see "slavery" with business being the "master," I see a collaboration where businesses help schools understand what skills are valued within the various industries to help individuals be more efficient/effective in their work. This "teamwork" helps universities prepare their students for the "real world expectations" while it helps businesses obtain a more educated worker for the fields they are seeking.

That being said, remember that even with this "collaboration," colleges still require a variety of classes to help individuals become a "more rounded person." (not referring to the "freshman 15" /w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif) Even the engineer, chemist, biologist, etc. still have to take things that they would theoretically never use (world history, psychology, art, etc.) in the workplace.

I guess I’m saying I’m confused on your position. “Well rounded” or “Business based learning”? Well, regardless, I see a college as offering both.

my problems with any institution, whether the public school, the workplace, or the local church, always are with the response to and care of individuals

An idealist view, for sure! Now before anyone labels me a me, I'm NOT advocating that businesses drive their employees to the point of "breaking them", pay poor wages, not give "benefits," etc.

But, and call this a philosophical difference if you like, but business DO NOT exist simply to provide people a place to go during the day and make everyone "feel good." No, a business, in the most basic description, exists to provide a product or service where there is a demand for one - not to serve as our "friend", "parent", or "guardian." Yes, they can treat employees "well" and be a good "corporate citizen," but realize that the vast majority of businesses do this because it directly benefits them (most of the time - I'll bring up an 'exception' later).

E.g. if employees are "happy" (good wages, good benefits, good hours, challenged, appreciated, whatever), they are more inclined to be more productive & efficient. That, in turn, drives down the operating cost which makes for a better profit margin - yes, the axiom of "it costs money to make money" is true! From the "corporate citizen" standpoint, the benefits are similar, just outwardly facing vs. inward (e.g. potential customer base.)

My understanding of the way we should run our society, and therefore the workplace, is the same.

Well, I'm not advocating deceit or other "evil" aspects, but quite frankly, if every business was a "nice guy" on everything, no businesses wouldn't exist. Always cutting everybody a “break” because you feel “sorry” for them? Er - uh - no. You, as a business, would be broke before you could say “Jack Robinson.” Even businesses that DO take a position on things that could potentially “hurt” them (hard to prove based on my earlier paragraph) for moral/ethical/spiritual reasons still charge for their product. (e.g. Chick-fil-A has a very religious current going through it and even if they aren’t open on Sunday because of religious convictions, no money, no food.)

 more secular terms, I tend to disagree with the increased emphasis in education toward fitting people into jobs

Again, that seems to disagree with your previous statement of advocating ”formal vocational (aka technical) training”

I have always disagreed with the intrusion of business into public school.

Yes, I agree if they are showing commercials and pedaling their wares, but if they are (at the college level) helping the institutions focus their learning for the purposes I previously described, I see that as a positive.

 I see it as the antisthesis of creative thinking, and ultimately a "drive killer", as individual talents get compressed and molded into filling the "quotas" required in the workforce

Just because companies come in and say “we are moving away from COBOL and moving toward languages such as C, you should probably start teaching classes in that” doesn’t “stifle” creativity. How does that “kill drive?” I think the real “drive killer” would be to graduate a student (university or home school) with a whole set of skills that they have little to no likelihood of using to obtain work when that’s what their goal was in the first place. (E.g. should we still teach the skills as a prerequisite for graduation associated with the manufacture “buggy whips”? Sure if someone wants to learn it for “fun” or simply just because they have an interest, fine - but to delude them in to thinking it is a highly valued and marketable skill set? Er, uh - no.) If you have 0 feedback from the business community, how will you know when the subjects you are teaching are outdated and obsolete?

Sounds a little "Commie" on the face of it, don't it? It was and is the practice of Communist societies to disregard the individual completely 

Yes, but as you point out, that is not really an accurate description. Sounds like you are more aligned with the model of Utopian Socialism, where the concern for “fair” treatment of each individual within a society was the main focus. It appears you have more in common with Owen & Mill than Lenin & Marx.

I strongly believe it is the creativity of the individual that advances business (and society), and not mere effort.

Yes, some of the biggest inventions and richest people were/are those who didn’t have a formal education. I’d argue though that these are the “exceptions” and the VAST majority of individuals in this world will never meet with the same success levels regardless of education background. Creativity is critical, but, based on your statements, it comes across that every home schooled college student is somehow “creative” where your typical university grad is incapable of creative thought. I don’t concur - and, again, getting back to some of the classes one must take in college, creativity is required. No, effort is not the only requirement - but it can be difficult to come up with ideas for a solution when you don’t know the basic facts required to create the solution.

....Are we increasingly breeding followers in the name of expediency?

Again, I’m a bit confused. On the one hand, you have said that formal vocational training is “good” and college “wastes a lot of time”, yet here, you seem to complain that “we” as a society are trying to get specialized individuals in too short of a time period because we are desperate. Seems contradictory to me. Additionally, I take issue with college grads being called “followers” - implying they are incapable of independent thought/creativity. There are plenty of “independent thinkers” that have a diploma on their wall.

Hopefully this gives some more perspective on how I "see the world." Hope you didn't get too blurry eyed reading such a long response! /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

Gary_in_Indiana · Aug 22, 2002

While I didn't homeschool my kids I'm certainly a big fan of homeschooling. I was very disappointed today to learn that California is requiring home schoolers to be certified teachers. Leave it to the left coast. /w3tcompact/icons/hmm.gif

knucklehead · Aug 23, 2002

Gary - you first, then Ranchman

My knee jerk reaction is follow the money - you'll find the NEA behind it. My slightly more well thought out reaction is it is an unfortunate severe restriction placed on the larger population due to some unbalanced information about a relative few cases of bad homeschooling results. It's hard not to focus on the negative; we're seeing it on this thread - me with the government schools (to borrow Rush's term) and others with fears of irresponsible parents. Both are real, neither are probably to the extent we portray.

Bottom line is that it is the parents' responsibility to raise their kids, and it just got easier for the irresponsible ones to mentally and physically shirk their duties, and harder for the responsible ones to shoulder theirs.

knucklehead · Aug 23, 2002

Oh, Ranchman, I'm sorry! I shoulda warned you - I'm a <A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.wikipedia.com/wiki/Luddite>Luddite</A> Engineer, a conservative hippie, and a tree hugging woodcutter. /w3tcompact/icons/grin.gif

I am in the process of penning a stellar philosophical response /w3tcompact/icons/eyes.gif, but it has taken 90 minutes so far, and my lovely wife, Proverbs 31 woman that she is, needs to get me going. Suffice it to say that my thoughts stem from one perspective, and that is my faith. I recognize the difficulty in implementing those ideals in the real world, but also the importance of teaching them to my kids. My boys, therefore, will be trained to know the truth, but acknowledge reality. It is important to know the truth, and to live in reality without adapting the dominant philosophies as our own. That is my major problem with the current matrix of education, and of business thinking: Wrong dominant philosophy. Mine starts with a cross, as you probably already know, and the understanding that one day, everyone will acknowledge the same truth.

Time be short, and eternity be long. /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

I guess that pretty much sums it up. I had a good rant going, though.

RanchMan · Aug 27, 2002

knucklehead-

Sorry its taken so long to respond, but that's what happens when you drive 2100 miles in 3 days....(a whole other story.../w3tcompact/icons/eyes.gif)

Anywho....

Oh, Ranchman, I'm sorry! I shoulda warned you - I'm a Luddite Engineer, a conservative hippie, and a tree hugging woodcutter.

Ahhh. I think I understand! /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif Well, kindof /w3tcompact/icons/hmm.gif. For me (as you’ve probably noticed /w3tcompact/icons/wink.gif), consistency in discussion is something I value pretty highly. Although your explanation is certainly farcical, it wasn’t quite as analytic as I had hoped it would be. Oh well, no matter...

I think (for the most) we probably approach a lot of things in life the same way. That being said, I guess we look at a few things differently. I too started a long response (big surprise! /w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif) but I think we are probably both speaking to "brick walls" with regards to this subject.

Where you see a glass "half empty" when it comes to public education, I see one "half full." Treading lightly in the theological arena is always difficult, but suffice to say that I do not have the same difficulties in reconciling faith/religion and the business/secular world as you do. (e.g. "truth" vs. "reality") I believe someone can be a learned individual educated in the public school system, exposed to those with different ideas/concepts, loose their gullibility/naivete, become successful in the business world, and still be a Godly & Christian person. I think in your heart you probably believe the same, but your posts have seemed to come across a bit more asperse.

Again, the whole theological arena is fraught with peril, so I think we are basically at a stalemate. I will say that this has been an interesting thread, though. Hopefully others out "there" have seen both sides of the argument discussed, if not to their logical conclusions (again, because I'm not "going there" with regards to theology), to the point where they took away something useful.

Kindof funny how we went from home schooling +’s & -‘s to how the business world operates to a religious context. Ahhh, what a long strange road it has been!

RanchMan · Sep 3, 2002

Kuncklehead -

I appreciate the time you put in to your response, and again, since we are both "hitting a barrier" with regards to "convincing" one another, I think we are probably coming to a "natural" conclusion in this thread.

You mentioned the perils of getting into religion - I would agree, if our mutual definitions are the same - 

I understand where you are differentiating "religion" and "faith." However, for the purposes of this discussion, I believe we are using different definitions. Websters has many definitions for both words, however, just to be clear, the definition of "religion" I was using was inclusive of "faith" and not associated with dogma as the definition you were using seemed to be.

So, again, although I understand "where you are coming from" and respect your ability to describe your beliefs, I think it is an inherently dangerous for me to make a bunch of pointed & specific comments as to your posts at this point. That being said, I will say go ahead and make a few general comments.

Although I tend to agree many of your theological statements, I do not concur with all of them. (I won’t cite which ones.) The point of view you expressed certainly helps me understand the "why" as to your actions, but since I do not concur with all of the points, I reach a different conclusion. We both have additional "points of evidence" we could present to one another to reflect our beliefs. Could we do this and keep the thread running? Yes. Should we take this "next step?" In my opinion, an emphatic No.

I understand your desire for “balance” and how you believe you have found it in your listening to/believing in a "variety" of views (often at polar opposites) to achieve it. I have not found this practice a necessary step for the reconciliation of secular activities amongst themselves, nor as a necessary step to reconcile secular activities and spiritual life.

I understand your priorities in "life" (including after-life) and understand you are conducting yourself in such a way to do what you believe are the "right things" for you and your family. I can respect that.

However, please understand that many of those (such as myself) who disagree on some of your points do not "care" for their children ANY LESS nor do they believe in their heart & mind that they are somehow condemning their children (or themselves) to everlasting damnation. Does merely having "one's heart" say it's "right" make it so? Absolutely not. (gets in to the whole "feeling thing" again.) But Judgement? I'll leave the judgement to "someone" else as I do not believe I am qualified nor entitled to make such judgements in this arena.

Again, I've already tip-toed FAR to close to the theological domain than I care to in such an environment, so I'll have to abstain from going further with regards to dealing with the theological aspects. I think with regards to the initial topic of yes/no to sending one's children to public school, we have both made our cases. I feel comfortable with what I believe are the consistencies in my arguments/points, hopefully you feel good about how you portrayed your side as well.

I have a better understanding of “where you are coming from” - hopefully you now have a better understanding of the same for me.

***
BTW - my wife and I went to a High School football game Friday night. Watched the game, conversed with town-folk, and listened to nice music. Lots of good, clean, wholesome fun, with a variety of "lessons" along the way for kids to boot. Cheerleaders invigorated the crowd, an ROTC kid directed us to our seats, the band played “their hearts out” and the football players worked hard as a team to achieve the goal. (Yes, they won.) Necessary for a "good life?" Perhaps not, but I'm not gonna deprive my kids of some of the "good stuff" in life like that. /w3tcompact/icons/wink.gif

knucklehead · Sep 3, 2002

Hey Ranchy

Very well written reply to my reply to your reply to my reply to your reply/w3tcompact/icons/crazy.gif! I think we might agree more closely than we think, as you say. I attempted at the end of my last post to show how that came about, even though our initial perspectives may differ a bit in temporal and eternal things. Even if we don't agree, that's O.K with me. I am not trying to convince, but to illuminate an idea. And I've never been considered to be the brightest bulb in the package. /w3tcompact/icons/clever.gif/w3tcompact/icons/tongue.gif

One thing up front - if I seemed to be condemning anyone, I apologize loud and long for that. I do not think there is one way to live on earth, although I think there is a best way. It's hard to talk about because we are bouncing back and forth between earthly and eternal perspectives. I think that is part of the problem. And the solution. /w3tcompact/icons/grin.gif No one is going to be condemned to damnation because they attend or send their kids to PS - I hope that is not the conlcusion my responses cause anyone to draw regarding my opinions. Thank you for giving me the opportunity to clarify that; that's why I like the way this forum works, and the quality of people responding to the threads (such as yourself), because we don't let each other get away with things, and we do so in a respectful if not meek manner. I hereby revise my earlier posts to remove any inference of condemnation.

If we are considering only what makes good citizens, there are a multitude of paths, including good old football (I played four years, and wrestled, and did track - I have the knees to prove it!). I should perhaps clarify this as we put an end to this conversation. I do not claim to know the only way to live a good life on earth. My post, perhaps better sent privately, was meant to show my heart a bit, ugly and stinky as it might be.....not to elevate myself above others. I hope I am coming across as one who points to the truth rather than pointing the finger at others. I can see how some of my stronger statements could be doing that, and for that I can only repeat that I am not creating truth, but illuminating it. No human has a lock on the truth, only what is revealed to them. If something revealed points out an error, then so be it. I am only now starting to get more comfortable with finding I am in error, which is often!

To quote the ancient & revered Firesign Theatre boys: "We're all Bozos on this bus"

My attitude, as honestly and succinctly as I can describe it, is that since we spend a relatively minute amount of time on earth and an infinite time in eternity, we should arrange our thinking appropriately. My responses may better be understood considering that perspective.

I herewith and forthwith bow to your dominant keyboarding ability.

RanchMan · Sep 3, 2002

Knucklehead -

Funny how those who agree on the vast majority of things still find room for a LOT of discussion on the few things they don't agree on! /w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif

I'm glad this thread remained so civil even though we see things (with regards to PS that is) differently. Especially since we have been talking about a multitude of things MUCH more controversial and potentially explosive than which tractor to buy! /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

I herewith and forthwith bow to your dominant keyboarding ability.

No need for that - I'd prefer a friendly handshake as we both depart for our perspective "locker rooms." /w3tcompact/icons/wink.gif I kindof look at this whole thing like a scrimmage instead of a contest - hopefully we both learned something about each other and ourselves by going through this exercise.

Take care!

Boondox · Sep 3, 2002

Mark -- My daughters attended public school in California, and having met a few home schooled teens recently I really wish I had HS'd my kids. My kids were often bored by PS, so I found myself augmenting their education with more challenging (and often more applicable) studies. That seems to be key in the kids who were 100% HS'd. Not only are they not forced to "progress" at the level of the slowest classmate, but parents can be much more innovative when it comes to practical demonstrations of applicability. I know one young boy who became a killer old car mechanic after his father used a carburator to demonstrate the physics of flow and atomization. Another learned celestial navigation as her family cruised the South Pacific...and went on to become a brilliant mathematician. I think those early childhood demonstrations have a lot more power to motivate a sense of drive and wonder. Another thing I notice among home schoolers is how the children enjoy joining in the dinnertime discussions of geopolitic or whatever...as if learning in the presence of adults fosters a maturity of outlook not seen in those taught in the pack. Lastly, the HS'ers are more critical TV viewers; they challenge assumptions.

I don't mean to slam PS, as there are certainly many PS products who grow up into fine human beings. And, of course, my opinion of the effectiveness and efficacy of home schooling is based on a small sample (14) of home schooled kids. But I can't help but wonder how much more my daughters would have gotten out of the learning experience if it had happened at home.

Pete

knucklehead · Sep 5, 2002

From what you describe, as far as I'm concerned, Pete, you did homeschool them - you just used a subcontractor.

My big thing, when all the above stuff is boiled down, is parental involvment. Of course, my faith enters into it, and I have strong opinions (who, ME?) about the various kinds of religion being taught in school, but it boils down to parental involvment.

I've been listening to Bill Bennett for a couple days on the radio, and man am I ever fired up to keep this going.....but maybe it's time to stop. There's a man with an opinion about what's going on in public schools. /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif