Powering well pump with a generator

   / Powering well pump with a generator #1  

arcteryx

Bronze Member
Joined
Jul 31, 2010
Messages
68
Location
Texas
Tractor
JD 3032E w/ Loader
I am looking for a whole house generator but want to get the sizing right. My well has a 3HP pump on 240. I measured the inrush amps on one leg with my clamp meter and it went to 42A.

A couple of questions
1- Since each leg is 120, is that 42A on 240V or 21A on 240V?
2- Is there a way to lower the inrush amps? AC's have things like Micro-air Easy Starts that do an amazing job. Is there are equivalent for a well pump? I'd like to get the starting amps down if possible.

Thanks.
 
   / Powering well pump with a generator #2  
it will be 42 amps at 240v. you prolly have a 40 amp breaker for it.

i don't see why a soft start would not work for a well pump a compressor is nothing more then a motor same as an ac. I would call microair and see if it will start a 3HP motor
 
   / Powering well pump with a generator #3  
Franklin Electric makes ones that handle the inrush / start load for wells.

They call them intelligent pump soft starter
 
   / Powering well pump with a generator #4  
I am looking for a whole house generator but want to get the sizing right. My well has a 3HP pump on 240. I measured the inrush amps on one leg with my clamp meter and it went to 42A.

A couple of questions
1- Since each leg is 120, is that 42A on 240V or 21A on 240V?
2- Is there a way to lower the inrush amps? AC's have things like Micro-air Easy Starts that do an amazing job. Is there are equivalent for a well pump? I'd like to get the starting amps down if possible.

Thanks.
Yes, 240 is just two lines in and out, so if you measure 42A on one, there is 42A on the other. Getting the starting amps down is a great idea.

There are a number of devices made that are basically small VFDs to slowly spin up a well pump. Littlefuse makes a couple different ones. Your well driller/pump installer might have some advice for you as well.

If you are trying to run a well pump on a generator, I highly recommend some sort of starter electronics / controller to slowly ramp up the pump, and keep the starting load low enough not to give your generator "fits". It will also help you choose a generator that is matched closer to your actual home loads, letting the generator run at closer to its fuel efficiency maximum.

Well pumps have to start under full load all the time, so in a sense, they are a harder start problem compared to AC units. There are a number of flavors of "soft start" products for ACs, but not every AC works with every product. And like the VFDs for pumps, more modern ACs are "inverter" variable speed units with minimal startup surges.

Good luck!

All the best,

Peter
 
   / Powering well pump with a generator #5  
A 3HP single phase submersible has a locked rotor amperage of 71 and takes at least a 4KW generator to start. Starting a pump against a "load" or pressure is actually easier than when there is no pressure against it. The first start of a submersible will take a lot more amps than when starting against pressure as when the pressure switch starts it at 40 PSI. Starting the pump against an almost closed valve or high pressure can reduce the amplitude of the locked rotor amperage and greatly reduce the duration.

Also, using the longest length of the smallest wire possible for the horsepower of the pump will make a reduced voltage soft starter without delaying the start time. With 190' of #12 wire or 300' of #10 wire the inrush current to the motor is limited by the wire size.

Other than a reduced voltage soft start or starting against pressure, you really do not want to slow start a submersible motor. The Kingsbury type thrust bearing does not get proper lubrication until the motor is up to at least 50% of speed. That start needs to happen in less than one second or the bearing will be damaged.

I don't know of anyone who makes a single phase VFD for 3HP. You would need to change the motor from a single phase to a three phase to use a VFD. But even then the 1 second thing makes soft starting with a VFD not as much of a soft start.

Starting is the only problem with a generator. So, once it is started just keep it running while water is being used. A Cycle Stop Valve will not let the pump cycle on and off while water is being used. The CSV also reduces the running amp draw according to the flow rate and makes the pump start against pressure, which both help when using a generator.
 
   / Powering well pump with a generator
  • Thread Starter
#6  
Thanks for the replies.

WRT the 4KW generator, how are you coming up to that? Unless I am doing math incorrectly, 240V * 42A = 10,000W, which is a 10KW generator to start the pump.
 
   / Powering well pump with a generator #7  
Thanks for the replies.

WRT the 4KW generator, how are you coming up to that? Unless I am doing math incorrectly, 240V * 42A = 10,000W, which is a 10KW generator to start the pump.
I don't know where he gets his math from.

Regardless, it isn't close to correct. Until you have some technology to reduce the initial startup draw, you would want more than 240*42=10,800 as an absolute minimum. I wouldn't attempt it with a 10,000W rated generator; that's stressing the generator the redline every time the pump starts, and that assumes no other loads or power losses. That is a recipe for generator burnout, at least in my opinion.

The general advice, absent knowledge of the startup load is to have three to ten times the running load for a well pump (to account for that monster startup surge, with room for other loads not to overload the generator). Given that you know that the starting load is at least 10,080, I would be looking at a generator in the 15-30kW range, depending on how much other load might be on the generator.

It is a fine line choosing capacity for a generator, as a generator that is oversized will always lightly loaded, and tends to have engine issues from never really getting hot, and an undersized generator tends to burn up just when you need it the most. Goldilocks. I would spend some money on a variable speed soft start pump controller for your well, and then add up the potential home loads (try reading your meter during "typical" load times to get a sense for what your other loads will be). If find the "typical" values listed on the web to not be very representative, at least of our home loads.

Or just buy a cheap 10kW running load generator and see how long it lasts. (Wouldn't be my choice, but then I have multiple backup generators...) Keeping power up for animal watering and WFH is pretty important here, and has been used multiple times.

All the best,

Peter
 
   / Powering well pump with a generator
  • Thread Starter
#8  
Thanks Peter, good info. I have a 2500gal cistern too that has a transfer pump, it's 25A inrush. I am unsure how often my well pump runs, but it's somewhere between 1-2 time per week. I can manage the well pump load by turning off the breaker, but the transfer pump is critical since my pressure tank is only 80 gallons. AC is 3 ton and I have an easy start on en route, it will be interesting to see how much the inrush drops. Between these two, they will be take the most energy and are more critical than say a dryer or hot water heater, but this is where load management comes in- what is critical vs nice to have.

I have been looking at 10-15K, but since I don't have propane, the dual fuels are not jumping out at me, it would require numerous 20-60 gal propane tanks.

I have also entertained PTO generators, which seem to be a topic that many are split upon. I personally don't mind if I rack up hours on a tractor, I am not concerned about resale but in using it. But I do want clean energy as most do, we live in a digital/electronic age and no one wants their computer/tv/oven fried.

The other option is a diesel generator but they get pricey really quick. I keep looking. A MEP-803 will surge to 14KW i think, so that could be an option albeit finding a runner that is within a few hours at govplanet can be a challenge. And if things go wrong, they can be really complicated to fix.

The other factor is it needs to be WAF friendly, which one could argue the two options above are not but something consumer focused like those at centralmaine or a kubota lowboy would be.

I welcome other options and feedback.
 
   / Powering well pump with a generator #9  
@arcteryx, glad to be of assistance.

The WAF is huge. A large propane tank, with an automatic transfer switch, and a Generac air cooled would be close to turnkey. A used, low hour, standby diesel with auto start and a manual transfer switch would be a close second. However, both would need either some intelligent load shedding, or be sized large enough to start and power all the loads at once.

I would not do a PTO generator in this day and age as we all have a lot of high value items that are much more sensitive to power quality than a toaster or fan motor. It would certainly not have my wife's seal of approval as "simple".

You don't mention where you are in Texas, but if you need/want your AC/heat pump to function, especially post hurricane/winter storm, I would be sure to factor that in, as that can be a substantial power load over the course of a day, and is likely to substantially increase the amount of fuel that you would want on site. (I tend to look at past electrical bills to get a sense of at least "average" power consumption, I.e. minimum loads without "user load shedding", and then add in the cushion you need for your well startup.

For your application, I would be looking more at an MEP-804; while an MEP-803 might do it, it would probably need some user load monitoring, which takes it out of the KISS arena, and potentially without the WAF, ditto paralleling two generators. I have looked at the MEPs on and off over the years, and I have come to the conclusion that they have pros and cons. They are well/overbuilt, generally well maintained, and run well. However, parts are a challenge, and often not cheap if you stick with OEM, and if you don't you need to be a creative mechanical/electrical person. They are also designed with a dedicated operator in mind, so not exactly autostart at two am when a tree falls in a storm. My other takeaway is that Govplanet deals aren't common, so it is better to regard the "real" price as something more like the upper end of recent sales. There was a big slug of post Deserat Storm units that went cheaply (large supply/fixed buying demand), but that is not usually the case anymore.

I would also bear in mind that while diesel stores longer than gasoline, diesel needs to be either turned over regularly (annually in many areas), or treated with algicide regularly and filtered regularly (e.g. continually). Propane is storage stable, but around here, not available for backup power usage during times of stress, as propane companies here prioritize heat over power in their post storm refueling. (That is, get a propane tank large enough to get you through several times the worst storm you have had.) Definitely a YMMV item.

At some point, a battery bank and solar starts to get competitive, and definitely they have the simple factor, but if your target use is an end of year, two week snowstorm, they aren't the answer, either. Enphase and Generac have battery solutions compatible with generator charging.

I think at some point backup power tends towards the "pick two items out of cheap, easy to use, reliable"... Here we are on the one and a half of three; reliable, and mostly easy to use.

We have solar+batteries due to wildfires and earthquakes, but with redundant backup generators for those winter storms, and for when the smoke is so thick that there isn't much solar power. But we don't have enough generator power to run our AC, which is ancient, and an energy hog. Then again the AC gets run about a week or so every other year, so the ROI on putting a new one in before it dies is zero.

All the best,

Peter
 
   / Powering well pump with a generator #10  
Oh, BTW, heat pump water heaters will drop your water energy usage by a factor of three or four. That's a big win on backup power.

All the best,

Peter
 

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