Perkins A4.248 in a MF 3060 cold start question

[NorthernChilli]

Hi all,

I got a MF3060 with a perkins A4.248 engine, ether system (but currently not working), no glow plugs, no preheater.

At 30F temperatures, it cranks but won't start. It doesen't even catch a pop at all, it will only blow thick white smoke from the exaust. The batteries are new and the cranking speed seems ok (although I don't know how fast it should turn). I tried at low 'throttle' and mid throttle. No diff.

When the block heater is plugged, it will start right away at low throttle, not needing any more than 1 second of cranking (so I can't deduce the 'hot' starter cranking speed to compare with the cold start cranking speed).

Thanks

Phil

Is it normal that the engine wouldn't start without heating at 30F temps ?

 

[banjodunn]

G'day you should have a thermostart (pre heater) fitted in the inlet manifold operated fron the ign switch it is a small resistance felt about halfway between ign on and start, it should have a small fuel line going in the middle and a heavy wire to the outside check that you have voltage to the terminal (you should have 12v),if not check at the firewall on the left side there should be a plug that goes through the firewaall with i think 2 or 3 heavy brown wires pull this plug apart as they are prone to corrosion there. I have also ran a wire from the back of the ign switch ( preheat term ) all the way to the preheater. You can also check the thermostart by removing from the manifold and applying 12v to the term and ground the body, you want to stop as soon as it starts to glow as you can burn them out!! If it all checks out ok when you refit you will need to bleed the fuel line you can do this by leaving the nut loose and cranking the eng over til you see fuel, you must do this or it is possible to burn out an old or new unit as they rely on fuel running over them to coll them and also to create a fire in the manifold. To operate turn the key to the preheat pos and hold for 10 - 15 seconds and then crank ( you should be on 3/4 throttle) if the engine doesn't catch after 15 - 20 seconds then you should wait a couple of minutes ( let the starter cool a bit) and try again. You should also check the pos lead onto the starter solenoid and make sure it is clean and tight and also if you have a ground lug on the end of the starter body run another ground lead to this ( can make a difference to cranking speed ). PHEW hope all this makes sense and is of some help
ALSO forgot to add DO NOT use ether and thermostart together can blow the manifold off!!!!!!!!!!!!
Thermostarts can be retrofitted as well


Jon

 

[NorthernChilli]

Well, since it's a model with ether (factory installed), there is no heater of any kind in the diagrams. There is no glow plug nor air pre heater either. I will check on the engine itself, but i'm pretty sure I never seen a preheater (or do you mean a glow plug?).

Thanks,
Phil

 

[art]

It will need something to assist! The safest option is a glow plug vs either!

 

[NorthernChilli]

It will need something to assist! The safest option is a glow plug vs either!

So i conclude from this answer that a normal diesel engine is likely to not start at 30F without aid ?

And as glow plugs are concerned, can I really add that if it was not designed that way ? If so, I could probably toss the ether system away and add some glowplugs and wiring in place.

Phil

 

[banjodunn]

G'day Phil you are correct it will not start by itself at 30f and the safest and kindest way is with a thermostart unit the fuel line running to it is fed off injector bleed off fuel, some units have a little reservoir mounted up on top of the engine or firewall if you can find one of these they are the best as they hold more fuel than the ones that just use a line from the top of the filter and are kinder in the thermostart units less chance of burning them out. If you have a good perkins mech near you he will know of the system i am talking about.


Jon

 

[NorthernChilli]

Well, on the diagrams of the model without ether, I can see the 'intake heater' as they call it which is connected to the top of the fuel filter on one side and on something that looks like an exhaust manifold on the other. The heater being near the manifold part. I wonder If i can just get the parts and plug it that way and get it to work.

BTW, I can't really figure how this thermostart work... some fuel is heated, and then what? Where does the heated fuel goes since it's not really close to the injection pump, I'm wondering what gives to heat fuel so far?

Phil

 

[art]

So i conclude from this answer that a normal diesel engine is likely to not start at 30F without aid ?

And as glow plugs are concerned, can I really add that if it was not designed that way ? If so, I could probably toss the ether system away and add some glowplugs and wiring in place.

Phil

It is rare that a diesel is good enough to start below 30 with out assist. Some need it more then others and won't start much below 40 or 50.

 

[NorthernChilli]

It is rare that a diesel is good enough to start below 30 with out assist. Some need it more then others and won't start much below 40 or 50.

Well, my 20HP ford 1320 shibaura starts with only some minor hesitation at 30f without operating the glow plugs and without the block heater, so that's why I was wondering how normal it is for the perkins to not even pop at all at the same temps.

Phil

 

[banjodunn]

G'day the heat actually opens a small valve in the thermostart and allows fuel to flow over the hot coil and actually creating a small fire in the manifold, it screws into the front of the inlet manifold ( on the air cleaner end)


Jon

 

[brokenot]

It is rare that a diesel is good enough to start below 30 with out assist. Some need it more then others and won't start much below 40 or 50.

That's surprising. Our oldest, highest-hour diesels all start in the 20's.

40 or 50? If that were the case we'd have no time to repair or maintain anything...we'd spend all day going from jobsite to jobsite just to get stuff running!

That said, Perkin's stuff doesn't like the cold much at all. Without starting aids, they won't go much below 30. And while their fuel-dribbling-into-the-intake-to-light-a-fire system does work, getting unfamiliar users to properly perform the starting drill is a tough sell. Especially when everything else on site fires up without any special devices or instructions...

 

[PoorMansCat]

I was going to say.. I know the system, and its horrible. Use a small snort of ether to start the engine or install a heater. Either a block heater for the cooling system or an oil heater.

Wait, which injection pump does it have??? and what hp is it?
Another though is to look at the cylinder head close to the injectors and see if there is a plug screwed into it. That would be where the glowplugs go. More than likely, all the cylinder heads are the same, and if it was assembled without G.P., they just screw plugs into the hole. Glowplug assist would be more expensive than a block heater, but glowplugs would allow you to park it outside away from a power source..
Contrary to popular belief, ether doesnt hurt an engine... WHEN USED PROPERLY. Problems arise when engines get hosed down with it as a remedy for other mechanical issues. And when people use it wrong. When set up properly, it only injects a nozzled down burst after the engine reaches a minimum crank speed.
I have seen the results of a Perkapillar that got an air cleaner full of ether, THEN they starter spinning it over. Blows the head gasket every time.