Grapple New Markham Toothbar - now add a Grapple or get a 4n1?

[MikeB44]

I recently ordered a Markham welding toothbar for my Kubota 3010 FEL (60" bucket). It arrived 2 days after I ordered it and it has been an excellent addition to my tractor. (The folks at Markham were excellent to work with – helpful, professional, and very fast!)

After rooting out some trees and brush (and seeing the scattered piles grow ), I was thinking about adding a grapple to the bucket. I've seen where other folks here have added grapples and diverters/hydraulics for around $1000. I also checked on an ATI 4n1 bucket (HJ2) - it was $2500 for the bucket, installed, with a new joystick and diverter.

In mentioning a single arm grapple to the ATI dealer, he said that I needed 2 arms (cylinders), otherwise odd shaped stuff would fall out of the bucket (like grabbing near the root ball). I figured I would just need to get a better bite for carrying such things.

My uses:
Now – clearing 4-10 acres of trees and brush, moving and prepping burn piles.
Later – building trails in the woods, possibly clearing more land for pastures.

Other needs – cleaning barn/manure (4n1 useful here?)

While I like the idea of a 4n1, I’m not sure if 2.5 times the price makes sense at this point in time (dollar wise or time wise to save for it).

Questions:
Any known issues with a single arm (cylinder) grapple?
Anyone have the Dehner ARM?
Any comments on the uses of a 4n1 vs a grapple? (Can you handle manure cleanup easily?)
Any other suggestions for this work (like don't get horses)?
Suggestions on good companies to work with are always appreciated.

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[MadReferee]

Any known issues with a single arm (cylinder) grapple?
Anyone have the Dehner ARM?
Any comments on the uses of a 4n1 vs a grapple? (Can you handle manure cleanup easily?)
Any other suggestions for this work (like don't get horses)?
Suggestions on good companies to work with are always appreciated

I have a 60" bucket on my Kubota with a 18" wide Andy Tatro grapple. I have had no issues with it as have several other TBN'ers.

The one problem I see with the Dehner Arm is that it has no teeth to grip with.

I have both a grapple on my CUT and a 4-n-1 on my dozer. Each has their strong and weak points. If all you are doing is brush work then the grapple wins. If you hare moving and spreading dirt then the 4-n-1 wins. Either will handle manure cleanup.

One more thing, the grapple detatches by removing 2 pins and disconnecting 2 hoses. Try that with a 4-n-1.

 

[IslandTractor]

In mentioning a single arm grapple to the ATI dealer, he said that I needed 2 arms (cylinders), otherwise odd shaped stuff would fall out of the bucket (like grabbing near the root ball).

Baloney. A single arm grapple does fine. See photos. There are some advantages of longer arm or double arm grapples but the short (or narrow) single arm grapples have advantages too. I don't have any trouble grabbing and lifting a root ball with my single arm grapple. Indeed, with the single arm I can do some things that a longer arm or double arm grapple cannot. For example, with a smallish tree or stump that is too big to just lift out of the ground, I can put the lower jaw tines under the tree, push forward then close the jaws so the upper jaw actually cuts through the side facing roots from the top and allows the tractor to effectively unroot the tree. Couldn't do that effectively unless I had the two "incisor" teeth of a single arm grapple.

I've never had a situation where I wished I had a double arm grapple. The root ball example is not an issue. Instead of picking up the root ball sideways, you just pick it up from front or bottom. No biggie. I sometimes wish I had a longer (wider) top jaw when pulling brush out of the woods simply because I could get an even bigger bite but that sort of work accounts for only a small proportion of total work so it does not make much difference overall. Picking up brush is not an issue because it tends to tangle itself up and bind together in such a way that the single upper jaw can easily hold it together while I bounce along traveling a couple hundred yards to the burn pile.

I do find that having a clear view of what I am grappling to be very helpful. If I had a bucket grapple I could not see where my tooth tines were at all times and it would limit my ability to accurately rip apart a tree trunk that required a bit of dismantling before lifting. With a bucket grapple, at least the type where you add a grapple to the regular dirt bucket, you lose a fair amount of capacity for brush and logs due to the bucket sides too.

My grapple is the 48" Millonzi. I don't find myself running out of "grapple" sooner than I run out of lifting power with my loader. These things are designed for skid steers so any loader with up to 2000 or 2500 lbs of lift capacity would be appropriate.

 

[3RRL]

IMO with your toothbar go with the add a grapple set up. I agree that one will do just fine. I did install 2 Tatro add a grapples on my 72" bucket since they are 18" wide. The separate clamping feature has made a difference when moving boulders recently, clamping down on large and small ones without losing the smaller ones. My bucket has the capacity for several boulders in it. But generally, these guys are right that one will do just fine. The installation is something you can do yourself with help here on TBN. Here's a thread on how I mounted my grapples and hydraulics.
TATRO GRAPPLE INSTALLATION

 

[MikeB44]

To All,

Correction – the 4n1 bucket and joystick/diverter was a WR Long and not an ATI. (Sorry about that).


Mad,

Thanks for posting. Questions on your grapple hook up.
Is your grapple base bolted on to the bucket? If so, have you had any problems with the bolt holes widening? Also, how are your hooks attached?

Welding the base to the bucket was one problem I had to figure out, as I have not found someone yet in my area for welding, but I can drill holes.


Island Tractor,
Thanks for posting. I agree that being able to see through a grapple’s tines vs guessing through a bucket is a big positive. I’ve repositioned the tractor a few times because of the difficulty in seeing the roots and missing the correct spot. (Of course the nose of the tractor helps block the view a bit as well.)

What is the weight of your grapple? My loader’s lift capacity is 1000 lbs and it does not have a quick attach connection. I didn’t know if that would be a problem with the Millonzi.

I had seen where another TBNer had put a quick attach connector on his L3010. Would there be any other skid steer attachments that would make sense for use on a tractor? (It seems to be easier to find used skid steer attachments at lower prices.)


3RRL,

Thanks for the link on your grapple post on TBN. I appreciate your detailed posts as they help me see the work involved in such a project. I also went through your detailed grapple post and found your diagram on hooking up to the power beyond. Any thoughts on the value of adding a power beyond valve (or valves) to my tractor? I thought about adding the rear hydraulics, but was trying to figure if I would use them for anything else (other than the grapple).




BTW - There is a Homier road show just down the road from my house. They had a Speedway flux welder for $99 and an arc welder for $39. I just don’t know enough about them to know if it’s a good unit or price. They are items numbered 07117 and 01433 at Homier Distributing Company, Inc..

My wife picked me up a set of 14’ chains (5/16”, grade 43) for $10 each and a set of 20 ton bottle jacks ($20 each).


Thanks to everyone for posting. I very much appreciate this forum and it’s members. I have been running between the farm, home, work, and school and greatly value the guidance I have gotten here.

 

[AlanB]

Mike, I would work with you if you wanted to weld that on.

Looks like an interesting project.

So I have a NH 1925 with a 7308 loader, no rear aux hyd. Somebody venture a guess as to $$$ to put one of these on including plumbing?

Cheaper more straight forward probably just to buy the Tatro deal then trying to figure it all out and build it from scratch I imagine?

If it is detatchable like what I see on Mad's, would it be reasonable to buy an extra set of bucket mounts, put them on the Bobcat bucket, and move the grapple from one to the other? I know my bucket profiles are slightly different, but is that compensated for in the mounts or in the design of the grapple tooth?

 

[MadReferee]

Questions on your grapple hook up.
Is your grapple base bolted on to the bucket? If so, have you had any problems with the bolt holes widening? Also, how are your hooks attached?

Welding the base to the bucket was one problem I had to figure out, as I have not found someone yet in my area for welding, but I can drill holes.

The grapple is bolted to the bucket. The Tatro grapple base is 1" thick flat bar and it's not going anywhere with eight grade 8 bolts holding it on. There is basically no way the bolt holes in the bucket will ever deform.

The 3/8" weld-on grab hooks are welded onto a piece of 1/2" thick plate then the plate was welded onto the bucket.

The picture explains it all.

 

[IslandTractor]

Island Tractor,
What is the weight of your grapple? My loader’s lift capacity is 1000 lbs and it does not have a quick attach connection. I didn’t know if that would be a problem with the Millonzi.

I had seen where another TBNer had put a quick attach connector on his L3010. Would there be any other skid steer attachments that would make sense for use on a tractor? (It seems to be easier to find used skid steer attachments at lower prices.)

The Millonzi 48" Light Duty Root Grapple with QA mount weighs 280lbs. My CK20 loader can lift 1070lbs at the pivot pins. I'm not sure if the lift capacity you quoted is mid bucket or pivot pins but in either case the Millonzi would be fine. WRLong also sells a very nice lightweight grapple but for lots more $$$. I got mine via eBay and I have heard a variety of prices quoted to other TBNers from mid 600's to over 900. You'd have to call Millonzi and bargain I guess. ATI sells one too I think $$$ and ATI definitely sells a nice QA adapter (approx 650) for your loader that would work with any "Bobcat" or standard QA attachment.

I think bucket grapples are very useful but if you are really doing a major land clearing operation strongly consider getting a true grapple for the job. You can always sell it when you are done and it will be much more efficient than a bucket grapple for brush. I doubt you'd have any trouble at all selling a used QA grapple. The bucket grapple would be more efficient IMO than a 4n1 for brush.

Other QA attachments that are useful to consider are a tree boom, forks, QA bucket (you could modify your stock bucket just by removing the pin ears and welding a QA attachment plate ($150) to the bucket. The beauty of the QA system is that implement switches are trivial and quick. Some people will buy a plain backing plate and attach other implements (such as a trailer hitch so you can add or share other implements). Bottom line is that you can use most anything a Bobcat can use if, and this is a big IF: 1) the device does not require high flow hydraulics (eg. mower) and 2) it is not too heavy for your loader (mileage will vary here but many QA implements are very heavy duty and weigh more than half your lift capacity).

 

[MikeB44]

Alan,

I would most definitely appreciate your help in welding (and hydraulics if you are so inclined). I’d probably put a hole in the bucket, cut all the hydraulic lines and then find that I mounted the grapple sideways (and to the loader arm) if I tried it myself . That’s why I was happy to see Mad’s grapple attached by bolts. Even if I do bolt a grapple on, I would probably want to weld on hooks and possibly something to push in metal posts.

As far as $, it seems to cost around $1000 for a single arm grapple, with diverter valve, hydraulics, and joystick (from what I have read in posts.) It sounds like your idea of getting 2 mounting brackets would work, as long as the buckets were similar in height (from top lip to bottom lip). Otherwise you would have to work with an underbite or overbite on either the tractor or the Bobcat.

Mad,

Thanks for the picture. It does explain it perfectly. Have you found many uses for the hooks after you installed the grapple? I chained some large fence posts to the bucket, as well as some logs. I wasn’t sure that after adding the grapple, that I would need the hooks as much.

Island Tractor,

I will have to go back and research the posts, but I think I saw someone pick up a QA bracket for his L3010 for $400. Is there anything to watch for in comparing QAs from different companies or shops?

Dumb question, but can you put as much force on digging with your grapple, as you could with a bucket & toothbar? I know that I have really been able to dig some hard roots and stumps out with my bucket. I’d just hate to bust a tine on the grapple trying to dig out a cedar (or locust) stump.

Many thanks for the pictures. I will have to start a pin up collection of attachments on my desktop, and slowly, over time, show them to my wife.

Many thanks again to everyone!

 

[IslandTractor]

Dumb question, but can you put as much force on digging with your grapple, as you could with a bucket & toothbar? I know that I have really been able to dig some hard roots and stumps out with my bucket. I’d just hate to bust a tine on the grapple trying to dig out a cedar (or locust) stump.

Well I guess there are limits to anything but I routinely stick my grapple under a tree and while curling to pop out the tree end up lifting up the rear of my tractor (weighted tires and a bush hog hanging off the back!!) without doing any damage to the grapple. Likewise when using it to push a tree over the grapple will ride up the tree and I will ride the tractor up the tree too until I get the trunk near the brush bar. No damage done (to the tractor or grapple anyway). Your tractor is heavier than mine but the CK20 is at least as heavy as a B3030 I think so it shouldn't be that much different than your tractor.