New CK30 HST, Low Power?

[kioti 100]

I just bought a new CK30 with FEL and backhoe. Has HST and ag tires with filled rears. I love the tractor but am a little surprised at the lack of low end torque with the HST. I had used my neighbors Kubota L2900 for a few days before making the Kioti purchase and the Kubota, with same setup, bh, ag tires filled but with Glide Shift was impossible to stop the tires when in Low 1.

With the Kioti and HST I can fairly easily "stall" the tractor by pushing into a pile of sandy loam that might have a little firmness to it. Even when the bucket is mostly flat and only half full it can stall the tractor. Yes I have the RPM set up around 2500 rpm and I am sure I am in low. In medium range if I put the back tires up to say a 12 inch mound and then feather into the HST until ihit the sweet spot it will just stalll , with no load. This is what I showed the dealer when he came to check - and he agreed it should climb over that.

At first I as convinced it was a bad tractor but the dealer, who has been great, took it back and put a new fuel injector on it, but it still seems less than I had expected. I am beginning to think its just the nature of the HST. The dealer thinks the weight of the calcium in the tires plus the backhoe and aggressive tread of the ag tires is just too much to let the tire break loose in the soil. I took the backhoe off and it does bust loose more often.

I have no other 30hp tractor experience and assumed the CK30 with HST would just push and bark tires even if I hit a tree... Can someone else confirm this is normal behavior? I did work on the tractor today for quite awhile and it performed well, I had to wiggle the blade and backup and get another position when I would hit a root or firm part of the soil, but overall it did what I wanted it to.

 

[IslandTractor]

Welcome to TBN.

Your post is detailed enough to eliminate many of the possibilities and perhaps your dealer is correct regarding the combo of weight/tires/BH/Ag tires etc. It is certainly possible to stall these tractors pushing into a pile of sand if yor traction is good enough so what you are describing may just be a normal tractor.

One thing you did not mention is how you are applying the HST pedal when you want maximum power. I cannot tell from your post how experieced you are with HST but remember that mashing the HST pedal down paradoxically delivers less power than only partially depressing the pedal. You might also get a bit more power by increasing the throttle to 2800 or so but 2500 is a good working range.

 

[kioti 100]

Thanks for the reply. Yeah, like I said the tractor and dealer are superb, I really am beginning to think that I was just expecting too much from a 30 hp hydrostat. I had rented a couple of 70-80 hp backhoe's last summer to do my septic and road on our 20 acres. Last month my neighbor offered his 29hp kubota and I was surprised how much I could do with it. But like I said it has the Glide Shift which has its own pros and cons. I assumed a hydrostat would be a negligible difference in low end power to a Glide/Shuttle shift, me thinks I was wrong. However even with this tradeoff I don't think I would trade the HST's ease of use, it is sooo nice to be able to effortlessly pedal in either direction.

 

[Rocky Kioti]

I believe you will see an improvement with more time on machine. I had similar issues with my CK20 but not now....

 

[Steve_Miller]

I have a CK30 at my place now as a demo and I see the same thing you are talking about with the exception that this one has R4's and I've had it in the mud and trying to push out a stump and it would not spin the tires. I have a 400lb weight on the rear to help with traction. If this were gear, it would bury itself, the same as my CK20 gear I have. HSt is handy though, I guess i'll have to weigh the options.

Steve

 

[ToadHill]

On my DK35 as I put more hours on it I noticed a significant improvement in the power band with each hour of use. At about 100 to 120 hours it leveled out and has been the same since then.

 

[BTI]

A glideshift is essentially a gear drive transmission with a hydraulic clutch.
It is more geardrive than Hydrostatic.
Less pedal also equals more power on an hst

BTI

 

[ERE]

Let me reiterate what Island Tractor said. I have a CK25 HST and I easily spin my tires when in 4wd and I push against something that won't give. I never stall the engine so for me it is a matter of losing traction not losing power. As previously spoken, it is completely counter-intuitive but the reason there is more power with less depression of the HST pedal is that the system works by what is called a variable displacement piston pump. Actually there are two of them, but one of them has its tilt block or swash plate fixed and acts as the hydraulic motor for the hydraulic pump. The pump is controled by the HST pedal. As you tromp on the pedal, the swash plate tilts and increases stroke on the pistons. Since the pistons are working at a constant rate, increasing stroke causes them to try to drive the hydraulic motor (and your wheels) faster. It is like being in too high a gear when starting a clutch car if the tractor is up against a load. Backing off on the HST pedal pumps less fluid to the motor (but still at a high pressure). The effect is like that of a continuously varying gear train. Less HST pedal means more torque but lower hydraulic motor RPM (wheel RPM). Hope the explanation wasn't so bad that it confused things. Bottom line is Less pedal means more torque.

 

[Steve_Miller]

I know how to operate an HST, my point is that it will not spin the tires no matter how far/less you depress the pedal or how fast the engine is running, may be this tractor's relief is too low or something else, but it is not operator error as I've driven plenty of tractors with HST. From what I have read over the past fews years here on TBN is that there are some inconsistencies with HST relief settings and I think there is one here unless everyone has a similar situation (I won't call it a problem as it may not be one).
This is second Kioti that has had this situation that I have driven and the first one (CK20) veered me away from HST as this one may as well. Don't get me wrong as I really like the HST and can probably live with the CK30 operating this way as it has more than enough power from what I have seen so far to suit my needs. Just to ramble a bit, two and a half years ago I started looking for a new tractor to replace my B7200 Kubota which was 18 years old at the time. I looked at NH, Kubota, JD and stumbled across Kioti. Got demo's delivered to my yard by Kubota (7600), NH (TC24) and Kioti (CK20), all HST's (JD didn't have anything available to demo nor tried to find something), Kioti first, it would not fill the loader bucket in low range or even spin a wheel in the dirt (which really surprised me), next was the NH, strong loader but again would not spin a wheel in the dirt (same pile), last the Kubota, not only would fill the bucket (strong loader), but if you purposely wanted to, it would dig itself to China spinning all four wheels. Needless to say this steered me away from HST at the time. Here I am again revisiting HST again and it's in the back of my mine that I'm not really confident that I want HST even though I would really love to have it. If someone could convince me that HST will improve with age then I may be persuaded to convert. The other thing is the R4 debate, I'm totally R1's as I never go on my lawn and am in the woods 50% of time. This CK30 demo has R4's and are useless in the woods where I was trying to do a little road building, without even spinning they were clogged with muck and mud (then it would spin quite easily as I had no traction even with 400lbs hanging off the back). Pummel me as I'm done babbling for now.

Steve

 

[RedRocker]

Mine will spin the tires, so it sounds like your relief valve might be off.

 

[cag]

Mine will spin tires too, under certain conditions,but the tractor will bog down if I do loader work on hard surface such as pavement..For me hst needed some getting use too.. I'm very happy with mine..cag

 

[mauistardog]

In low gear and at that rpm (2500) I spin my wheels if I push against something that wont give.
joe

 

[IslandTractor]

Whether the tractor will spin tires or stall when faced with pushing against an immovable object (eg big stump) depends on more than just power or type of gearbox. The weight of the tractor and traction would also be factors. With a heavy tractor and good traction, I can easily see that you might stall before spinning tires. With a light tractor, eg Kubota B7610 or 7800, you might well spin tires. I don't see being able to spin the tires as evidence of anything other than a mismatch between available torque and current traction. You are not moving the stump any better while spinning the tires.

 

[shvl73]

my point is that it will not spin the tires no matter how far/less you depress the pedal or how fast the engine is running, may be this tractor's relief is too low or something

I also wonder about the relief setting.
As a point of reference, my 2810HST is close in weight, with slightly less hp. I have loaded R4's and I usually run it in mid-range at around 2000 rpm's for loader work. It can spin the tires if the pedal is used lightly when pushing into a dirt pile. I've yet to do any loader work with anything more than the boxblade on the 3pt, so less weight for ballast than you've used. I would think that tractor in low range would have more torque than your seeing.

 

[kioti 100]

Just got off of the tractor after being on it all day. It now has 13 hours on it. Thanks for the tips on how to operate the HTS pedal, but I am fully aware of not just slamming into it - I typically "feather" in until I hit the sweet spot for power. Let me re-iterate that I am seeing stalls when hitting nothing more than some fairly compact dirt with half a bucket or less - let alone a rock or tree stump - the soil is sandy loam and not hard clay or anything, very powdery.

As for spinning tires, not that I want to sit and spin but having driven the Kubota L2900 with the Glide Shift - it really helps to get through some stuff when the tires can slip a little at times and catch a little traction to push on through. The Kioti HST just does a pitiful moan and slowly stops. Thats fine if its how its supposed to be but as I said I have no previous 30hp HST experience. Sounds like some have this experience and others do not. For those who do not - do you have any rear weight or does your HST just growl through whatever you throw at it?

 

[Steve_Miller]

I don't see being able to spin the tires as evidence of anything other than a mismatch between available torque and current traction. You are not moving the stump any better while spinning the tires.

You're not moving the stump any better if your not spinning the tires either. How big is the stump? At least with the gear version it will stall or spin, with HST how do I know if its putting the maximum power to the ground?

Steve

 

[IslandTractor]

I am seeing stalls when hitting nothing more than some fairly compact dirt with half a bucket or less - let alone a rock or tree stump - the soil is sandy loam and not hard clay or anything, very powdery.

.....The Kioti HST just does a pitiful moan and slowly stops. .

If the "compact dirt" you are referring to is in previously undisturbed ground then I don't think what you are experiencing is necessarily abnormal. You might not be able to primarily dig more than that espcially if you don't have a toothbar to break up the ground. However, if your "compact dirt" is a pile of dirt then that is clearly abnormal as your tractor should be easily able to fill the bucket before stopping.

Others have mentioned the possibility that your HST relief settings may be off...I would think your dealer could figure that out quickly if he took a test drive.

 

[HODAK]

Can we assume that you are in low range? I use mid once in a while, but find that low range 4wd works great when doing loader work and I can spin if i want to, but that doesn't accomplish much, (other than making a couple of divots that I have to drive over on the next trip). I can fill the bucket and then some - to the point of losing some when I hit a bump in the trail. It appears there are more CK owners that aren't experiencing your problem. Hmmmm............

 

[cag]

To best describe maximum ground power just drop in low at full rpm, this is the best way to judge your power to the ground...cag

 

[kioti 100]

Thanks everyone, I am putting this to rest for myself - so I can get on with enjoying my new tractor and get some work done. I like the tractor and others here have confirmed what I was seeking, that it is normal for an HST to not spin tires all the time. Knowing that I can feel assured that the tractor is "normal". Hopefully as others mentioned it will gain power while breaking in and I will ask my dealer about the relief valve setting.

I love the tractor and have gotten a lot done. The soil I called "fairly compact" would be undisturbed as mentioned by IslandTractor so again I just wanted the assurance that this is to be expected. Obviously there are tradeoffs with the HST and Gear type transmissions, but I have found the HST indispensable in working with the FEL and can't imagine having to grab the column every time I wanted to change direction.

Initially I panicked a bit when the tractor first arrived but after the last 5 or 6 hours on it, it has really gained my respect that it can do what I want.... would be nice though if Kioti would make a super low range for HST for those times you just need a little more.