Need Help on Barn

[jmattox1]

I need your help.

I have a 31'd x 37'w 2 story barn that is in bad shape (it came with the house that way purchased in Feb 02). The barn is built with 3 sides into the side of a hill and the fourth with overhead doors (10’ Great for tractor boat etc). It has a block walls first story aprox 12' tall then conventional framing second story with manufactured truss roof system. The center support 1st story is steel I-Beam. Completely open great for storage. It has Native Oak joists and sub-flooring.

Here is the problem!

The 3 block walls that sit into the hill have heaved considerable from the hydraulic pressure of the ground.
There is a natural spring that is tiled out aprox 15' out the front of the overhead door. The spring ran all summer even in the drought. I know, I tiled it last summer when I hit it by accident with the FEL. Took me 10 days to tile approximately 350’ feet to a creek.

Could I install a perimeter drain, set some dead man into the walls to reinforce them from moving, come inside saw-cut the floor (concrete), and pour a monolithic wall/s up to existing joists?

If so how large and of what material should the Dead man be?

Whew, what a mouthful!

Hope I explained well enough.

All opinions appreciated.

 

[Darren]

If you put in a perimeter drain correctly it will solve the heaving problem. The block walls are another matter.

The perimeter drain outside the barn should preferably be below the level of the slab inside the barn. I've harped on this a lot on this site because a properly built drain AND the correct backfill would solve a lot of problems with basements and retaining walls.

After you've dug out the perimeter around the barn use geotextile fabric (It comes in 12' rolls) to line the trench all the way around. This keeps the native soil from infiltrating and blocking the drain over time. The geotextile should be pinned so it comes out of the hole and is not loose so it keeps falling back into the excavation.

Depending on how much water you're seeing out of that spring, pick an appropriate sized perforated PVC pipe for your drain. I'm guessing maybe 4". Lay the pipe so that the perforations are DOWN. You'll have a U shaped line running around the barn foundation. The slope should be such that the pipe directs the water to the open side of the barn where you can get rid of it.

After installing the pipe, cover it up to about a foot with a small sized crushed stone that's large enough not to fit into the perforations of the pipe. When the stone is in, cover the top of the stone entirely with geotextile. Once that's in, backfill the rest of the excavation with clean sand. Then fold the geotextile over the top surface of the sand to prevent soil from washing down into and blocking the sand.

The last foot or so can be regular soil. That means most of the soil you excavate needs to be disposed of. If you use it for backfill either you or someone else in the years to come will be doing the job over.

As for the block walls, I'd coordinate the work with a mason and rebuild the the walls. You'll have to temporarily support the structural members while that's going on.

Joints in concrete aren't going to leak if they're built correctly. Waterstop is available but it has to be placed so that one end of it's embedded into the floor slab before the walls are placed. Doing that now with what you have is going to be difficult. Either way the block has to be removed and you still need the drain whether you're using block or concrete for the walls.

 

[jmattox1]

Darren, I agree with you on the perimeter drain except for a couple of issues. The geotextile fabric is a must, for the walls and to wrap/sock the pipe for the drain. I do not like using sand. Sand has a tendency to hold moisture. I prefer pea gravel for a back fill. When it hits the hole, it is 90% compacted. Less chance of it settling.

The spring in front of the barn is piped with 4” and increases to 8”quickly before it dumps into the creek. Completed this for future connections of tying the perimeter drain of the barn and possible the house into this line.

Disposing of the dirt is not a problem on the property, had in mind to use it to fill in unleveled areas.

Again, the concerns are on the block walls. I am looking for the most cost efficient way to solve the wall issue.

Thanks for the help.

 

[Darren]

If you use clean sand, the water will freely drain into the stone and from there to the pipe. By clean sand, I mean sand only without any fines. I've built french drains that way and I test them by dumping water on the top of the sand before I wrap the geotextile over the top. The water should soak in and disappear immediately.

I've got an L shaped french drain around two sides of the house. The other two sides drop off. Before the drain was built the yard was always wet because those two sides go uphill fast. Everything drained to the yard. Now if we have any days without rain, the grass goes brown over the drain because the it pulls the water out of the ground.

You can use stone. Just fill the excavation all the way up to within a foot or so of the surface. The geotextile as you seem to know has to completely encircle the stone. I've never used a sock because I've always gotten clean stone crushed to a size that won't get into the drain pipe.

I'd find a mason to look at those walls and give you an estimate. I had a friend who had a finished basement that was used as a family room. One spring a whole section of the block wall fell in. After a drain was installed they relaid the block. He hasn't had a problem since.

If you go with concrete I would expect it's going to be difficult getting it into the forms and vibrating it unless you can remove the flooring above.

 

[beenthere]

If you are going to excavate outside the three walls, then I would either pour a foundation wall outside the concrete block or replace the concrete block with the poured wall, or pour a wall on both sides (with ties through the block) of the concrete block wall. Trying to do everything on the inside of the existing walls to hold blocks in place will be fruitless, IMO.

I had the similar situation with my father-in-laws home before (and after) he passed away. What a mess. The only way it worked (he tried all kinds of patching and building of structures inside the basement) was to remove it (jacked the house up) and pour a concrete wall. After 15 years, it holds up today.

It seems that barns, when they no longer house animals, don't have heat in the winter time and the walls suffer greatly. This may not be the case for you, but have seen it in a lot of the old barns around here, when sitting cold in the winter. LOL

 

[Anonymous Poster]

Jon,
I don't know how bad the block walls have heaved (bowed in the middle?) If it is a substantial amount you should stablize
them before you excavate.If the motar between the blocks
is loose or falling out you could possibly loose a section of
the wall.I would have a structural engineer look at it and tell
me what to do about stabilizing the structure before I did any
digging.I agree with the others about how to cure the water
problem,You have to give it somplace to go other than against
the foundation.You may also want to waterproof the exterior
side of the wall to keep water from seeping through.
I work for a general contractor and we have had problems like this before.Most can be repaired.
Hope I helped.

Fuz1

 

[Soundguy]

If you could post a few pictures of the inside, and outside.. especially showing the damaged area of the wall.. we might be able to give you some ideas of stabilization of the damaged wall before excavation.

Also, any idea if iron rebar was used in the wall?

Soundguy

 

[jmattox1]

Thanks

Darren, beenthere, & fuz1

Yes, fuz1 the walls are bowed in the middle and some of the mortar joints are quite loose, also, I do understand about supporting the structure before ANY repairs/excavating is started. This is a must.

My concern is:

1)would it be cost effective to pour a new wall inside the building while reinforcing the block wall so it doesn’t collapse against the new wall (hence dead man) or
2)tear down the block and go back up with block or
3)start with a new building

If I decide on a new building (Pole Barn) than due to the way the land is contoured on the property I would loose half of the storage space I desperately need. I would not be able to build in same location because of the underground spring.

I can accomplish just about anything I set my mind to. I have not poured a concrete wall (poured lots of concrete in younger days) or laid block or brick.

In addition, yes building funds are limited.

Any Masons out there have guesstimates relaying block verses a poured wall, advantages/disadvantages in either.

Again the measurements: 37’ w x 31’ d 2 story 1st story 12’ ceilings with block walls.

 

[jmattox1]

Sound Guy,

Do not know if rebar is in block wall or not but all 3 walls are damaged. On 2 walls someone has put 4X6 standing vertical and bolted through 2 of the walls.

Do not have a digital camera, looking into purchasing for items like this, I mean wifes birthday! lol

 

[Darren]

I'd start keeping on eye out for cribbing materials. Someone around here bought 50,000 railroad ties so he was willing to sell the #1 grade at a good price. One tie cut in two would make one crib. It would unfortunately be a lot heavier than a normal crib. No fun to stack.

Around here the sawmills end up with a core from the log that's not in demand for much. I think the only use is for pallets if that. Those might work for cribs if you get enough of them.

Sam's Club before Thanksgiving had 20 ton bottle jacks for $20.00. It goes wihout saying that unless you tear the barn down you need to start looking for materials. Hopefully you can come up with some cheap or free timbers. Once you have your support stuff, you could shore the structure so that even if the block collapsed the barn wouldn't.

Then you can do the rest as time and money permits.