Moose Cow n Calf Shot

[RAllen]

I live in Montana, property borders the Flathead National Forest. For about 6 months my neighbors and I have enjoyed the company of a very large Cow Moose. This spring, she gave birth to a calf. They were wild but were seen from time to time by all of us.

Both the cow and the calf were shot friday by two hunters. The incident was observed and the sheriff called. Occurred on National Forest land so the local ranger showed up too. Turns out the "hunters" were members of the Salish-Kootenai Confederated Tribes- Flathead Indians.

Even though we are 60 miles from the reservation, moose are not in season, and a cow with calf was killed. The local law enforcement could do nothing. Seems treaty rights allow tribal members to kill any animal at any time anywhere on federal lands. Iron Eyes Cody is probably crying in his grave. There is no game left on their resevation- there are no restrictions as to season, gender or size or age limits.

Guess its too much to ask these guys to go deep into the wilderness if they want to hunt moose. Montana severly limits the number of moose permits issued. Our area has none issued because of current low moose populations.

My family and I are going to miss that old moose and Montana lost a little bit of what makes it special.

Rick

 

[cowboydoc]

RAllen,
Know that area pretty good. My wife is from Bozeman and we own about 350 acres there that her dad ranches for us. With regards to the moose deal yes I can sympathize with you there that that was sad for you and completely understand. However, the land that you own and live on was stolen from them so who really has the right to that moose? The Flathead Lake and Flathead Forest both bear their names. Yes it's sad that they would kill the calf but they had good teachers at being treacherous. The kind of atrocities that we pulled on the indians would not even be tolerated in today's society. My feeling is whatever they want we owe them. This was their land not ours.

 

[RAllen]

Richard

I just read your post and was a little shocked. I am getting really tired, really tired of this type of reaction. First thanks for your sympathy but what is owed to one people by another has to have limits. Millions of $ is spent on the local reservations with little material results. What does England owe to me and others of Scotish descent? Of Irish descent? These things have to have some sort of limits. Yep, they have "treaty" rights and yes they have to be honored but I guess its too much to ask the tribal government to have some sort of limits to PROMOTE good game management.

Yep, they got the short end of the stick 100 years ago but not as bad as other tribes. I do not accept group guilt as an excuse for bad behavior. Such attitudes ensure continuing problems between peoples.

Richard, where did the Flatheads get their land? Do they have deeds? They took the land from other Indians when the Blackfeet and other more powerful tribes forced them over the divide and off of the plains. This does not excuse our record of relations but I would argue the world is a much better place today with wheat farms replacing buffalo grass. Not as pretty, certainly not as romatic but it does feed the world. Enough of the political, doesn't belong here. I posted the above as I thought others would be interested in an unique challenge to rural life here in Montana.

Rick


Rick

 

[TerryinMD]

This is an interesting post.

The "allowing" of hunting by tribal members on any Federal Land is particular to their treaty or all treaties with Indian tribes. If that is the case, tribal members can hunt almost anywhere they wish within Federal Land. Key word here is Federal Land. Here in the east, this could be problematic. Heck, does that include National Parks like Antitem Battlefield, Gettysburg, C&O canal (this land in some cases is just 100's of feet wide), the Mall in Washington DC, whoa....

Oboy... this could really get some of our environmental friends upset.

I know what I'm suggesting is silly, but ya never know.

Don't get me wrong. I don't mind people hunting for food. Can't take that away from them with what is in the treaty. Just don't think that our forefather's ever imaged......

 

[cowboydoc]

Rick,
Did they eat the meat that they killed? If they did then I see nothing wrong with what they did. Just to clarify there has been millions yes but nothing close to the billions in land that was stolen. I mean my gosh we took the best of the land and put the reservations on the wasteholes that nobody wanted or better yet just killed them all so they didn't need a place to live. What a tragedy. Then we make them become farmers on land that you can't farm even to this day. Deeds are worth nothing more than the paper they were printed on. All that is is man's law saying you own the land which none of us really own anyway. It's a sad situation but not much different than the person that does get a deer or elk permit and kills a mother.

I spent two different summers at two different reservations for part of my schooling in Montana and Idaho and the things that I saw and learned from the government there made me pretty sad for the things that were done to them, even today. I used to say the same things that you did in your reply until I saw firsthand what a "beaten" people is like. It was really sad to be there. I could have had my entire schooling paid back plus a $128,000 a year salary from the government to stay there but I couldn't do it. It was too depressing. After those experiences I don't judge anything the indians do as harsh anymore. I guess it's kind of like the dog or wife that gets beaten down for years and then one day decides to fight back and either kills or injures the person that was beating them.

As far as to we have now made the land better than it was when they were here and feed the world. I suppose it would be ok just to go over and take over the oil fields. I mean surely we could do much better things with the oil than what they do with it. I agree with alot of what you say but that I don't. It's not my place or yours to say what a people does with their land. I just don't think you or I can judge them for what we already have given them in a treaty. If they want to kill a moose and calf for their winter meat so be it. It's their right by the treaty that we signed with them.

Now you want to talk about a travesty how about talking about what Ted Turner has done with the elk in Bozeman.

 

[fishman]

Check out the historical novels by Allan W. Eckert. The first in the series is "The Frontiersmen". He draws extensively from historical records and paints a convincing picture of life on the frontier. The events of the book are supported by direct references to written documents. I've read the first two books in the series and they are, by far, the most gripping and compelling novels I have ever read. The savagery of those times, on both sides, is incomprehensible. Violence and treachery had no home, no race or creed. It was everywhere. These books were of great interest to me because at least one of my ancestors was in Kentucky during the period the first book reports on. A recent immigrant, not Indian, I'm sure he had his share of hardships.

This is a much different time and place. One can only go so far to address past injustices.

Hey, read the first book and see if you like it. It's a little dry, but for those interested in that period of history, I think it's a must read.

 

[cowboydoc]

Oh I completely agree that the past is the past and that's that but what we're talking about with killing the calf is something that was already promised them in their treaties that they could hunt what and when they wanted to on federal lands. We're not talking about giving them anything more just what was promised them in their treaty. My take on it is that they should be able to do whatever they want within the boundaries of their treaty. Rick's contention is that they should be held to some kind of accountability instead of getting a carte blanche for hunting.

 

[looch]

Two years ago, a group of Cree indians did a fair amount of damage to the local moose population. They went out during the month of January (moose are "yarded up" at that time of year) on snowmobiles and brought down the entire yard - 11 moose. I agree with Richard that they should be able to do whatever they want, but it becomes hard for me to stick by that when they whack an entire population. Clearly these people do not share the respect for nature that there ancestors did.

 

[RAllen]

Richard and All
First, I am not anti hunter and not even anti Indian. Treaties have to be honored, but they can be admended, even withdrawn- ie. the ABM Treaty with the former Soviet Union.

The Flathead Indian Tribal counsel has the power and does regulate hunting regulations for members and for all hunters on tribal lands. They have done a piss poor job. That is a fact.

These people are not starving, they have acess to food stamps and many, many more government assistance programs. I am really not against them taking a moose but to use some common sense in game management.

All across the west, Indian tribal members violate good game management under the protection of treaties that were written to ensure they did not starve. I have heard tales of Indians using dynamite to destroy fish populations out of spite and leaving the fish to rot because one state did not require fisherman to use indian guide services in the particular area.

Now, perhaps, the last wild moose in my neck of the woods has been killed. She was just an easy target, these guys were able to back up their pick up truck to the kill site. These "hunters" could have gone north, east or west and found wilder areas with more moose. It just would not have been so easy a kill.

Rick

 

[cowboydoc]

I think that's why there is the hate that there is is because we constantly amend the treaties to suit our needs. You mention that the indians have access to welfare and food stamps. Geez don't they deserve any pride? I know if I had the choice of going out and shooting a moose or stand in line at the checkout stand with food stamps I'll kill the moose 10 our of 10 times. Yes there are some indians that do stupid things and kill needlessly but there are also 100x that many white hunters that do worse than what the indians are accused of. I'm sorry the moose you liked was killed, I really am. In this specific case though if those indians ate the game that they killed I don't see what they did wrong.