Mitsubishi D1500 Engine Knocks (121.1 Hours)

[Clyby]

Hello! I have no experience with Compact tractors, so any help or guidance will be appreciated!

I looked at a Mitsubishi D1500 today with 121.1 Hours. It has a 4' Bushhog. Owner is asking $3600 but will negotiate. He is the second owner and is confident with the engine hours.

I was quite excited since the tractor looked to be in very good shape for a 70's/early 80's year machine. However, when he started it up, I almost had to cover my ears.

Although I am not very familiar with diesels, I have been around tractors and driven some, but this seemed quite a bit more noticeable than I have ever heard. It sounded like someone hammering (metal knocking) inside the engine and was most noticeable in the exhaust (driver's side) area. The noise was worst at idle and tended to get a little better/less noisy above 1200 RPM. However, it did not seem to improve as the engine warmed up -- we ran it about 10 minutes. Since the fuel injector is on the other side, I don't really think that is the issue... Also, noted was it was just a little slow to start. He had to crank maybe 5 seconds or so and he had to push the throttle up a bit.

I have listened to similar tractors on the YouTube videos and most were what I would call "normal" sounding. However, I did see one video of a D1500 that sounded at least as loud as this one.

The owner has only ran the tractor a few times since he bought it and seems to believe this is completely normal for this tractor. He indicates it has been this loud for as long as he owned it..

Anyway, I would be interested in any sort of comments. Is this normal on some of these 2 Cyl engines? Could it be a timing issue? Should I pursue this tractor anymore? If so, should I barter the price down significantly? What do you think? Please let me know. Thanks!

 

[CalG]

Say what? I can't hear a thing.....

Did you look at the oil dip stick? glitter in the oil would tell you a lot ...

 

[Ilikeurtractor]

One of my tractors has a Mitsubishi KE70 engine (looks like the D1500 has a KE80 from what I can find) that is "extra knocky" to the point I really want to wear ear plugs while running it. It always seemed to be a "dog" compared to any of my others. I have a KE75 that is much quieter and has much more torque but it is a larger engine so it has inherently more torque and power but not tremendously according to the published numbers. The KE70 also has relatively poor acceleration that I'm thinking is related to the noisyness. I've had the motor completely apart, installed new rings and bearings, and adjusted the timing to factory settings (from the 10 degrees BTDC to around 25 degrees BTDC). I also had a fuel injector shop rebuild the pump. None of this really made that big of a difference in power or the knocking but the new rings and timing work did help a little.

I'd say test the tractor out in high gear by getting it rolling from a start at minimal fuel setting on level ground and quickly go to maximum fuel and see what happens. It will lag some, but you should be able to feel decent acceleration out of it. If it lags and seems like it really struggles to accelerate I'd avoid it.

Here's a video running both engines. The audio doesn't really capture the difference but in person it's quite significant:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HGoiB07t4H4

The white tractor has the KE70 in it.

 

[Gale Hawkins]

While we can have different thoughts about the knocking I think 100% of us can agree most any 30-40 year old tractor will have more than 121.1 hours on the engine.

 

[Clyby]

One of my tractors has a Mitsubishi KE70 engine (looks like the D1500 has a KE80 from what I can find) that is "extra knocky" to the point I really want to wear ear plugs while running it. It always seemed to be a "dog" compared to any of my others. I have a KE75 that is much quieter and has much more torque but it is a larger engine so it has inherently more torque and power but not tremendously according to the published numbers. The KE70 also has relatively poor acceleration that I'm thinking is related to the noisyness. I've had the motor completely apart, installed new rings and bearings, and adjusted the timing to factory settings (from the 10 degrees BTDC to around 25 degrees BTDC). I also had a fuel injector shop rebuild the pump. None of this really made that big of a difference in power or the knocking but the new rings and timing work did help a little.

I'd say test the tractor out in high gear by getting it rolling from a start at minimal fuel setting on level ground and quickly go to maximum fuel and see what happens. It will lag some, but you should be able to feel decent acceleration out of it. If it lags and seems like it really struggles to accelerate I'd avoid it.

Here's a video running both engines. The audio doesn't really capture the difference but in person it's quite significant:

Iseki Foot Pedal and Blowby Check - YouTube

The white tractor has the KE70 in it.

Thanks for the youtube - it was very helpful and interesting. I actually could tell the difference between the two tractors. From the best I can tell, the tractor I am looking at has almost exactly the same sound as your KE75 engine (the quieter one). Anyway, I will research this blowby issue some more plus look into some of the other issues. Thanks again!

 

[284 International]

I have a D1800 with a KE95. It sounds exactly like what is recorded in the above video clip. My Yanmar 2 cylinders are even clangier. The majority of the noise is from the engine itself, I think. I have operated one of my Yanmars without even the exhaust manifold on, and it wasn't much louder, and the muffler on the D1800 just moves a small amount of noise to a different place. Not having the muffler on doesn't make it much louder, but merely blows the exhaust in your face.

If the engine sounds like clanging, I would say it is normal for this type of machine. It should be matching with the firing of the cylinders, not the revolutions of the crankshaft. The motor should pull smoothly and strongly from 12-1400 RPM on up. There may be a "clank-clank," (lag) "clank-clank" action with a little surging at low RPM, because the cylinders don't fire at even spacing, but it should pull well, if that makes sense. Think of a Harley or big single-cylinder motorcycle engine as an example.

Only 5 seconds of cranking isn't alarming to me; the glowplugs may not both work, but if he didn't preheat them, 5 seconds barely gave them any time to warm up at all.

It is hard to give price guidance. Your area, market, need, and the particular machine all have dramatic influences on the value. Is it 4 wheel drive? How are the tires? What type are they? Does it only have the brush hog?

 

[Ilikeurtractor]

While we can have different thoughts about the knocking I think 100% of us can agree most any 30-40 year old tractor will have more than 121.1 hours on the engine.

Good point. Not impossible but highly improbable. If the hour meter is a 5-digit one and works it would be a little more believable but a 4-digit one is most likely rolled at least once.

 

[Ilikeurtractor]

I have a D1800 with a KE95. It sounds exactly like what is recorded in the above video clip. My Yanmar 2 cylinders are even clangier. The majority of the noise is from the engine itself, I think. I have operated one of my Yanmars without even the exhaust manifold on, and it wasn't much louder, and the muffler on the D1800 just moves a small amount of noise to a different place. Not having the muffler on doesn't make it much louder, but merely blows the exhaust in your face.

I've had the muffler and exhaust manifold off of the KE70 and it makes no difference except when it accelerates. Then you'll get kind of a low, relatively louder lugging tone until it comes up to speed. I was surprised though that, like you said, it makes no significant difference having it on or off.

 

[Clyby]

Good point. Not impossible but highly improbable. If the hour meter is a 5-digit one and works it would be a little more believable but a 4-digit one is most likely rolled at least once.

I am getting some great inputs and really appreciate it! As far as the time on the engine, I too have been very skeptical. I queried the owner -- he is the second owner but seemed quite familiar with the original owner. The original owner passed away and his wife sold the tractor. He is going back to speak with the wife to see if it is possible that the meter has turned over... (The current owner seems to really believe the gauge has not turned over--I think he is honest)

It will be interesting to see what we turn up. However, I would say the tires seem to have no wear on them. There are chunks knocked out in several places on both back tires (do no know how that happened), but otherwise look to be pretty much "as new" considering many years of "weathering".

Thanks again!

 

[284 International]

My D1800 has a 5 digit meter, and read a little over 140 hours when I got it. The rest of the tractor seems all original, and the paint is very faded. In the Yanmar forum, a member from Japan once posted about the hours these machines were used in Japan originally. His basic message was that the average farm in Japan was somewhere around 3 acres, and the tractor may be run through the field once or twice a year, and not used the rest of the time.

There was (is?) a strong migration away from small family farms to the cities, and apparently many of the tractors just sat, and were eventually gathered up by the exporters to be sent around the world. Many of the machines come over with a few hundred hours, so it's not unbelievable that your machine might have been used only a hundred hours or so. It is abnormal, to be sure, but not impossible.

If the tires are new, the engine runs well, there are no signs of abuse or lack of maintenance, etc, there are probably thousands of hours left in the machine. The Mitsubishis are good tractors, frequently better in quantitative ways than Kubota or Yanmar machines. Engine parts have good availability in my (limited) experience. Tires, belts, hoses, filters etc are generic and available. There are difficulties finding internal parts like gears, axle shafts, and so forth. If the machine isn't abused by the operator, it will last thousands of hours and suffer no failures, but many people break things, and any of the grey imports, including the Yanmar and Kubota machines, require more diligence and owner involvement in finding parts for repairs of this sort.

That's not meant to discourage you, but merely to point out that these aren't a Ford 8N.

 

[Ilikeurtractor]

... it will last thousands of hours and suffer no failures, but many people break things, ...

I agree. If these tractors are operated within their design parameters (i.e. they are not a D9 Cat dozer so don't expect them to do the work of one) they should at least last well into the lower thousands of hours. Most of the major problems I've ever seen were clearly caused by neglect, abuse, and unrealistic expectations of operators.

 

[Clyby]

Since everyone was so helpful in this forum, I thought I should post my decision on this... I checked the oil as CalG suggested -- no glitter. As I mentioned earlier, this tractor sounds very much like the video llikeutractor posted so my main question seemed to be answered -- this knocking is not abnormal; and as he suggested, I tested the acceleration in high gear -- it was quite good with good power. As far as the time on the engine -- who knows? Both owners stuck to their story that the 121.1 is real. The one thing I would add is that the meter is 5 digit so it is actually 0121.5.

The tractor seems to be well taken care of but there is "weathering" associated with a machine of this age. It is faded and aged, but I think it is solid. Based on this and all the other excellent comments and suggestions, I am now the hopefully happy owner of a Mitsubishi d1500! So thanks again to all and I am hoping for the best!!!

 

[284 International]

Congratulations on your purchase! I hope you like, and are able to share photographs of your new machine.

 

[Ilikeurtractor]

Sounds like a good tractor. I'm sure you'll be happy with it. Best of luck to you :thumbsup:

 

[Gale Hawkins]

I agree it sounds like a good tractor. If it is gray market there is a possibility the importer changed out the hour meter before selling it. The odds are the last two owners are straight shooters. Our 1976 MF 265 is showing 1300 hours and it was new when FIL purchased it. The 1983 JD 310B backhoe counter stopped at 34xx hours but based on wear of pins I would say it has 2-3x more hours than that. Both will start before you can get off of the starter button, runs well and do not burn oil.

An old tractor that will start, run and do the tasks you require of it I think just needs to be used and let the chips fall where they may. Even with old junk tractors most will still be able to do what they do today 20 years from now if we will change the fluids every few years.

 

[Clyby]

I agree. If these tractors are operated within their design parameters (i.e. they are not a D9 Cat dozer so don't expect them to do the work of one) they should at least last well into the lower thousands of hours. Most of the major problems I've ever seen were clearly caused by neglect, abuse, and unrealistic expectations of operators.

OK some more of the story. I got the tractor home and finally got my tractor expert friend to look at it. UNFORTUNATELY he was not available earlier.... He has convinced me that many of the skeptics were correct - the tractor has more than 121 hrs. The good news is he supports what a lot of others on this forum have said. The machine is solid and can last a good long time and I think mine is in this category. So thanks again. But, it looks like I am going to be in for a significant amount of "catch up" type maintenance. For example I need brake shoes and manuals. I am posting new threads on this and if I get somewhere near the same response as I have on this one, I think I am going to eventually have an outstanding tractor.

 

[lens12]

I have manuals & used shoes or can reline your shoes. It may be an older Vietnam "rebuild"

 

[oliver28472]

Have you looked at the shoes yet? They may just need to be de-glazed or roughed up with some coarse sandpaper. Are they squealing? My S-470 was bought new by my father and I don't think the shoes have ever been replaced. I have taken the brakes apart and cleaned everything in there and put a small amount of anti-seize on the part that moves the shoes.

 

[Ilikeurtractor]

I've taken off countless times with the brake lock engaged. When operating in the lower gears sometimes you don't even notice the brakes are on. I'm close to installing a light switch showing the brakes are activated so I don't keep doing this. You can put a lot of "hours" on brakes (not to mention other parts) inadvertently doing this

 

[Clyby]

I have manuals & used shoes or can reline your shoes. It may be an older Vietnam "rebuild"

I am interested in getting the Owners manual and Parts book. Do you have those for the D1500? Also, the problem with my brakes is there is no more adjustment on the right side. The left side still has plenty... So I don't know about using used brakes. I probably should try new brakes or look into relining.