Miller 211 or 252... How important is "auto-set"?

[Piston]

Looking at the 211 and 252. I notice the 211 comes with "auto-set" and it doesn't look like the 252 does?

Is this an important feature for someone who is not very experienced in welding? (i.e. myself:laughing


Is it difficult to "set" the 252 properly?


Also, I don't have 220v in my garage yet, but my father has a 10kw diesel generator with a 50amp plug. It's one of those cheap Northern Tool versions so I'm not sure if that makes a difference or not, but I'd plan on using this generator to run the welder until I get 220 wired in.

I had a whole bunch of other questions regarding a new welder, but pretty much found everything I needed with a little of TBN googling :thumbsup:

 

[Shield Arc]

Personally I wouldn't own an auto set / tapped machine!:thumbdown: I want complete control. Once you learn how to read the puddle, and learn what it takes to get the puddle to do what you want, setting the machine is a piece of cake. I would buy the 252, I've never heard a bad word about them.

Far as running off a generator, I have no idea.

 

[BukitCase]

I bought a 211, only used the autoset on it for maybe 6 months. Found that if I set the "thickness" knob half a size LOWER than what I was welding, it worked fine with next to no thought, other than paying attention to keeping the arc at the leading edge of the puddle.

Found a deal, bought a VERY slightly used 252 with 30A spool gun (NEVER used) and 2 large tanks, sold the 211 to a friend who is mainly "old school stick man".

The 211 has a chart inside the wire feed door, but nowhere will you find REAL wire speeds or voltages - they are all just numbers. That's fine if you just use the miller settings, and even WITHOUT autoset I found their settings to be a bit hot. YMMV.

The 252 comes with some flip charts behind the front panel, along with a small storage space for extra tips, etc - I bought one of miller's "slide rule" pocket calculators for MIG, and find that this also works better at the lower end of settings for any particular metal thickness (so maybe I'm just a slow welder, works for me)

Either machine will give you good results once you're used to it, up to 1/4" or slightly above - the 252 will go up to about 1/2", but if you do that very often you will probably be looking for a heavier duty MIG gun than the M25 it ships with - they tend to melt if you run them really heavy.

You can get much heavier duty guns for the 252, but don't try to put a different, longer torch on the 211 - its drive mechanism isn't rated for a longer gun and it will void the warranty. The 10 foot torch limit is one of the reasons I sold mine. The optional Spoolmate 100 spool gun for the 211 is 12 feet, but with a spool gun you're limited to 1 pound spools which are VERY expensive per pound compared to the larger spools. Among 12 inch spools, even the 44 pound wire frame spools of Lincoln wire are cheaper per pound than the 12", plastic, 33 pounders.

IF you get a 252 with a 15A or 30A spool gun, and want a heavier duty MIG gun (regular gun, not spool) the Miller Roughneck torches are available up to at least 400 amp rating, and Roughneck tips are interchangeable with 30A spool gun tips (which are DIFFERENT than the regular, M25 Mig gun's tips.

That's why I'm planning on replacing the standard M25 gun on my 252 with a Roughneck, instead of a Bernard or other higher duty gun.

The 10kw genny should run either machine UNLESS you wanna run the 252 MAXED OUT - at that point a 10k genny might get a bit nervous - haven't tried that myself, and the 252 manual does NOT mention a genny AT ALL. If that's your intention, I'd ask the Miller guys about it first.

Probably missed several points, but HTH... Steve

 

[Katahdin]

I don't weld a lot, but I do have a 211. The only point I'd like to add is when you use .24 wire to weld thinner sheet metals, like for auto body work, the AutoSet on the 211 is of no use to you anyway. The Autoset on the 211 only works with .30 and .35 wire.

 

[Piston]

Thanks for the replies so far....

Either machine will give you good results once you're used to it, up to 1/4" or slightly above - the 252 will go up to about 1/2", but if you do that very often you will probably be looking for a heavier duty MIG gun than the M25 it ships with - they tend to melt if you run them really heavy.

Steve,
The reason I'm considering the 252, is because of the larger capability over the 211. I don't have too many projects that require really thick steel, but I do have 2 on the burner that are 1/2" and 3/4" steel respectively. Would I be able to weld the 3/4" (thumb for backhoe) with the 252? I understand I can't do that in a single pass, but can I use it, and will it be just as strong as a stick welder?

Also, I do plan to use it for 3/8" steel, not often as I'm only a hobbyist, but a fair amount of my projects will be semi thick steel. I really don't have any use for really thin steel. Is the gun that comes with it going to be sufficient?

Would I need to use the larger .045 wire for thick steel? And can I use that with the gun that comes it?

Personally I wouldn't own an auto set / tapped machine!:thumbdown: I want complete control. Once you learn how to read the puddle, and learn what it takes to get the puddle to do what you want, setting the machine is a piece of cake. I would buy the 252, I've never heard a bad word about them.

Far as running off a generator, I have no idea.

Even taking into consideration, that I am not even close to an experienced welder, do you think that I'd be able to adjust the 252 properly? It doesn't seem all that hard, I just want to make sure I'm not shorting myself.

 

[Shield Arc]

Even taking into consideration, that I am not even close to an experienced welder, do you think that I'd be able to adjust the 252 properly? It doesn't seem all that hard, I just want to make sure I'm not shorting myself.

I'm sure there are plenty of videos on You Tube about how to set a Mig machine. Come on now there are only two things to think about. Voltage, and amps. With this type of wire feeder amps is controlled by wire speed. On the whole you'll adjust wire speed more than volts. The problem with Mig welders, and Mig welds. Everybody wants to go cheap, buy a 120-volt Mig welder from Harbor Freights and start building 12,000-pound trailers. These under powered Mig machine make beautiful looking welds, but they are weak! With Mig welding you want to run as hot as you can handle it.
Here glance through these two threads.
http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/welding/212146-mig-break-test.html
http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/welding/211904-7018-break-test.html

 

[Piston]

Come on now there are only two things to think about. Voltage, and amps. With this type of wire feeder amps is controlled by wire speed. On the whole you'll adjust wire speed more than volts.

I've never used one of these units before, so forgive me if I'm not aware on how to adjust it. Hence the subject of this thread


This is the exact reason I'm asking about autoset, because I'm not sure if it's easy to adjust or not. However, based on the comments, seems like it's nothing to worry about. Thanks for the answers, I guess that settles it.


Regarding the cheap Harbor Freight ones, I never thought once about even remotely considering anything of that caliber. I've yet to see any bad comments on the Miller units, specifically the 252, so figured it would be a good place to start. :thumbsup:


-Matt

 

[Shield Arc]

Here bookmark Miller's welding calculators. You can dig around on their site, and buy a slide rule that you can have out in the shop with you. This should be a good starting point for you. Once you get going there are plenty of guys here who can dial you in if you post pictures of your welds.

Miller - Welding Calculators

 

[Arc weld]

If you want to weld 1/2" and above the 252 would be a good choice. You could burn .045 flux-core(Dual shield) with knurled drive rolls. They make .035 flux-core as well but it costs a lot more per pound. The 252 has digital meters that tell you the volts and amps/wire feed speed. Every wire made has a list with suggested parameters and the machine has a general chart as well for solid wire. With experience you learn where you like it just by the sound and what the puddle is doing. If I bought a 252, I'd get a credit for the M-25 gun and use it to purchase a 300 amp Bernard, Tweco, Kent or other name brand gun. I wouldn't get a heavier Miller gun because it would most likely cost more and the consumables would also cost more. The auto-set on the 211 doesn't have to be used. I've never used it but for beginners, maybe it at least helps get them in the ball park as far as settings. It still has infinite volt and wire speed settings like any other good MIG machine. There's quite a big difference between the 211 and 252 though. If you only had to do occasional heavy welding, a 212 might be a good option. It has a lot higher duty cycle than the 211 and I think would work for your project if you turned it up hot and used some preheat.

 

[BukitCase]

My choice (probably) of guns is based on recommendations on a couple other sites by experienced weldors, I got the impression that EITHER the Miller Roughneck OR the Bernards were quite a bit sturdier than the M25 gun that ships on the 252's - as to price, online the Roughneck runs about $70 CHEAPER than the Bernard, both 400 amp rated.

Price aside, I probably will NOT be doing aluminum any time soon, so I'm considering setting up the spool gun for .023 wire (tacking, sheet metal) and using .035 wire or larger on the torch for heavier stuff.

The interchangability between Roughneck and 30A spoolgun would allow me to get an .023 tip for the spoolgun that is NOT listed in parts list for the 30A gun itself, but my LWS guy didn't see why it wouldn't work.

Haven't priced Bernard consumables so can't comment on that.

Machines - I looked at the 212, basically it's a 211 with a bigger case, better duty cycle, auto-set AND auto SWITCH between spoolgun and Mig gun (remembers settings for each, just pull the trigger of the one you're gonna use), and takes 12" spools - not sure about the drive mechanism, but IIRC it comes with a 15' torch so probably stronger than the 211's drive.

For the difference in price, I'd STILL take the 252 over the 212. I'd never used the 120 volt option on the 211, and it's too heavy to really be called "portable", so for me I'll take the power. (weighs about 90 pounds with a full spool, and after shoulder surgery that's more than I wanna do more than a few times)

Weld strength - I'm still pretty new at Mig, but from what I've seen on the hundreds of vids I've watched/bought, two of the most important rules are "run hot" as Shield mentioned, and stay in front of the puddle for best penetration.

I've yet to be able to break any of my MIG welds, but honestly when it gets above maybe 1/2", I'll be dragging out my old 250 amp transformer machine (which hasn't seen any connection other than DCEP since 1979) and some 5/32 7018... Steve