3-Point Hitch Massey 165, Added 3 spool valve lost draft control

   / Massey 165, Added 3 spool valve lost draft control #1  

dcharette

New member
Joined
Nov 1, 2015
Messages
12
Location
Czech Republic
Tractor
Massey Ferguson 165
Hello,

My name is Dan. I have a 1965 Massey Ferguson 165 with an AD4.203 diesel and multi-power transmission. It has a front end loader with a pair of dual action hydraulic lift cylinders to raise and lower the arms.

When I got the tractor, the loader hydraulic hoses were connected to a small diversion valve located just under the seat near the quadrant controls. I've attached a picture of this original diversion valve. The way it operated was when the toggle lever on the top of the diversion valve was in one position, the 3pt lift arms would operate, utilizing the draft control quadrant lever. When I moved the toggle lever to the other position, the 3pt would no longer work, and oil would be diverted to operating the lift cylinders for the loader. I was able to raise and lower the loader using the draft control quadrant just like the 3pt. This had been a little tricky for the longest time, because if I wanted to raise the loader and hold it in position, it would always be a factor of trying to find the correct spot on the draft control to do it. It worked though, just a little slow and tricky.

So, to get around this problem, I was lucky enough to have been gifted a new Cross Manufacturing BA 3 spool valve which ideally, I thought it would make it possible to operate the loader and the 3pt independently.

I've installed it where the old diversion valve was, and the results are a little puzzling and I'm hoping someone can help me to get the problem corrected.

I've connected the loader hoses to the rightmost Cross valve(if viewed looking down from the seat.) According to the Massey aux hydraulic manual, the position quadrant should be located at "constant pressure" and the draft quadrant at "up." When I then pull the Cross control lever back, the loader raises. When I push it forward, it drops, and it drops much faster than the original diverter valve allowed it.

Now, the 3 pt is where my problem resides. I still need to have draft control functionality for plow. But, I cannot for the life of me seem to get it to operate. What I presume is supposed to happen is that the leftmost Cross valve(as viewed looking down from the seat) would be pushed out and detented into the forward position, allowing oil straight through the valve back into the draft controls. The position control quadrant would be in "transport" position and the draft control would raise and lower the 3pt with draft floating functionality. But this doesn't seem to be what's happening.

Instead, I need to put the draft control in the up position, and push the Cross lever forward to detent, then the 3pt raises all the way up and stays until I pull back the Cross lever and carefully pull is back past center because the 3pt will drop full force. The draft control can be in either up or down position and the pulling the Cross lever back brings the 3pt down with full force, no draft control functionality.

So, I am able to raise and lower the 3pt using the Cross lever, but, I have no draft control.

Again, the previous, original diverter valve allowed draft control to work.

So, any ideas on what may be the issue? Perhaps I need to perform some mod on the Cross valve? I've looked through the literature that came with the valve and online, but I haven't been able to locate the smoking gun issue that pertains particularly to my problem.

Any help on this would be greatly appreciated as I'm already over the moon at being able to raise and lower the loader into a static position without having to "find" where I want it.

Thanks!
 

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Last edited:
   / Massey 165, Added 3 spool valve lost draft control #2  
You can't use the internal 3pt pump to simultaneously operate a loader and use draft or position at the same time, if this was needed a aux or MP pump was factory installed, if you have this, then have a hydraulic connections on the round cover where the PTO handle are.
 
   / Massey 165, Added 3 spool valve lost draft control
  • Thread Starter
#3  
Hi Agvg,

I should have mentioned, that I have a 165 multi-power model, which I believe may have the aux hydraulic pump? Never had to dig into it on this level, so I'm unfamiliar with what I truly have.

I should also clarify, I don't ever need to simultaneously run the the loader or the 3pt, it's always and either or situation. I raise the loader to some static position above the ground to then do 3pt work, plowing, tilling. Then, if I'm doing loader work, I usually don't have anything attached to the 3pt. It's just the notion that I don't have to flip a toggle diversion valve to operate the loader, and then use draft control to raise and lower it without much precision.

Thanks for the reply.
 
   / Massey 165, Added 3 spool valve lost draft control #4  
A pic of the hose running down by the side?
 
   / Massey 165, Added 3 spool valve lost draft control
  • Thread Starter
#5  
That pic with the hose is going to the left loader cylinder. And I don't have any ports on the side plate next to the PTO lever, so I guess then I don't have an auxiliary hydraulic pump installed.

But, what has me puzzled is that prior to this spool valve installation, I had the original diverter or what I think is may be more properly called "combiner" valve. This is the valve that is grey in color by itself in the two pics. With this installed, I was able to operate either the loader or the 3pt with the draft control. So, just logic here, but why can't this new Cross 3 spool valve perform a similar function as long as I don't try and use the loader and the 3pt simultaneously, only one or the other. Prior, whenever I would till or plow, I would put the loader up a little, about 60cm up from the ground and then close the brass valve on the top of the combiner valve, and this would lock the position of the loader. Then, I could just change the lever position on the combiner valve to the other position and operate a plow with draft control, and the loader would still stay positioned where I wanted it. Once I was finished, I could unhook the plow, and move the combiner lever back, and open up the brass valve and get my loader control back with the draft quadrant as the control for up and down. So, it seems to me that perhaps I may have this new Cross valve configured wrong. I just don't see why I can't move those cylinders to some position, and then when the lever is in neutral, the oil should stay sealed and lock the position of the loader cylinders. While at the same time, if I open up the left most valve, put it in the open detent position, the oil should be flowing back into the system to be using for the 3pt. and still having draft control and the response control active.

What's so different about this spool valve setup from original the combiner valve?

BTW, here's an ebay link to these things... they even state in the ad that they can be used to control some external hydraulics and the 3pt without switching.

MASSEY FERGUSON 3 SPOOL VALVE 19833A92 35, 65, 85, 135, 15, 165, 175, 1:D, 23 79678932117 | eBay
Triple 3 Spool Hydraulic Valve for Massey Ferguson 19833A92 SBA311 | eBay


I
 
   / Massey 165, Added 3 spool valve lost draft control
  • Thread Starter
#6  
I've had a chance to start trying to demystify this hydraulic situation for myself. I've pulled off the Cross valve and had a look at the previous combiner valve to try and wrap my head around what the oil flow directions are supposed to be.
I'm hoping someone can help me with my attached picture of the lift cover on the 165. This is the flange where the combiner or spool valve would mount. What I'd like to ask is if someone can identify what these numbered ports are and what they do.

Port 1 - I believe is the main supply of high pressure oil from the pump.
Port 2 is the return to the draft control section?
And port 3 is a mystery, anyone know what this is and where it goes? With the combiner valve installed, this port 3 was sealed up by the valve body and never used.
But with the new Cross valve, this port 3 appears to be the return from the Cross and the port 2 is sealed up and not used by the Cross valve body. Though, on the Cross valve body, in this port 2 position, there is a machined flat spot that appears it may be an optional position to drill a hole depending on the application for the spool valve. So, my current thought is drilling this hole and sealing the port 3 on the cross to mimic the flow of the previous combiner valve. Though, I don't want to proceed without first trying to understand what this port 2 is on the tractor.
Thanks!
 

Attachments

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   / Massey 165, Added 3 spool valve lost draft control #7  
Have never heard anybody hav drilled or blocked any holes for such a valve.
 
   / Massey 165, Added 3 spool valve lost draft control #8  
You have oil up the pipe, one hole going to the 3pt lift cylinder and one in return. That's all you have.
 
   / Massey 165, Added 3 spool valve lost draft control #9  
If you are missing a port on the valve you should ask for a replacement.
 
   / Massey 165, Added 3 spool valve lost draft control #10  
You don't have any valve in the ordinary sense on the 3pt, you regulate the pump directly and that's make external hydraulics a pain because you don't have a constant flow of oil unless the quadrant is set to constant pumping. It an heritage from Harry Fergusons original design before the war.
 

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