Oil & Fuel Ls Mt225e engine loosing power

Mattbaker162 · Dec 30, 2022

I want to pre apologize because I know my explanation of the problem will be lengthy. It will be that way because I want to make sure I get aa much information about it out there to avoid dead ends and putting in more time than needed. What I have is a 2020 mt225he with the mitsubishi s3l2. Now before I started working for my boss I'm told the fuel pump failed and was changed out. Now this is the most frustrating part for me is that not a single person seems to be able to remember if the problem was there before the fuel pump was done or not but that point is mute because I have since changed the fuel pump. The problem occurs when you curl the bucket with a load or curl and try to go up or down at the same time. If you turn to sharp going up any kind of grade in medium and high. When I say loss of power I mean it bogs right down to an idle and a few times has stalled. What I have checked is all the fuel lines and tank for obstruction and all were clear. I've bled the entire system multiple times just to be certain there was no air. I have roughly confirmed that the injection timing is accurate although it was dark and hard to get an absolute accurate reading and am going to run a more accurate test soon. I serviced the entire tractor to eliminate any filter concerns and to ensure all fluids were filled and clean. My thoughts moving forward is to check valve clearance as the machine just rolled 500 hrs. I'm also considering that the muffler might be restricted in some way and while I always seem to have good fuel flow I also plan on running it with the cap loose to verify it is nothing to do with the vents. Am I heading in the right direction or am way off base?

K5lwq · Dec 30, 2022

Do you have any other way of loading the engine? Like a rotary cutter? This is where a PTO dynamometer shines. Then you would be able to see where the power falls off.

From your description it may not be a power problem at all. It could be an issue with the hydraulics. Sounds like the hydraulic pump may be dead heading all the time. Did this tractor come with a back hoe attachment? If so there may be a loop hose not connected on the power beyond circuit. Just a few thoughts.

Williy · Dec 30, 2022

IMHO if you turn sharp on a flat or hill
and you lose power you could have a
bare wire cutting off the fuel supply.
Are the wires loose on the shut off
solenoid??? this is just a wild guess

willy

Mattbaker162 · Dec 31, 2022

K5lwq said:
Do you have any other way of loading the engine? Like a rotary cutter? This is where a PTO dynamometer shines. Then you would be able to see where the power falls off.

ggrapple bucket to the machine not sure if it runs on the same po

bbackhoe but we have added a

No

N

From your description it may not be a power problem at all. It could be an issue with the hydraulics. Sounds like the hydraulic pump may be dead heading all the time. Did this tractor come with a back hoe attachment? If so there may be a loop hose not connected on the power beyond circuit. Just a few thoughts.

Williy said:
IMHO if you turn sharp on a flat or hill
and you lose power you could have a
bare wire cutting off the fuel supply.
Are the wires loose on the shut off
solenoid??? this is just a wild guess

willy

It's definitely not out of the realm of possibility that there might be a wire issue but if it was cutting fuel supply or the shut off solenoid acting funky I would think it would sputter and cough or shut off instantly. The loss of power I have isn't like it's running out of fuel but just boging down like it's under a tremendous load. I'll definitely pay attention to the wires around the engine next time I work on it. The best way I can think to describe the way its acting is if you were trying to push or pull something entirely to heavy and the rpms drop and it sounds like it's struggling.

Mattbaker162 · Dec 31, 2022

K5lwq said:
Do you have any other way of loading the engine? Like a rotary cutter? This is where a PTO dynamometer shines. Then you would be able to see where the power falls off.

From your description it may not be a power problem at all. It could be an issue with the hydraulics. Sounds like the hydraulic pump may be dead heading all the time. Did this tractor come with a back hoe attachment? If so there may be a loop hose not connected on the power beyond circuit. Just a few thoughts.

It did not come with a back hoe but we have a grapple bucket for it. I'm not saying if they function on the same power beyond circuit or if they are separated by blocks one in the front and the other in the back. Unfortunately we don't have anything to run off the pto and would you be able to locate the problem in the hydraulic system by a guage and a pressure change?

K5lwq · Dec 31, 2022

Mattbaker162 said:
It did not come with a back hoe but we have a grapple bucket for it. I'm not saying if they function on the same power beyond circuit or if they are separated by blocks one in the front and the other in the back. Unfortunately we don't have anything to run off the pto and would you be able to locate the problem in the hydraulic system by a guage and a pressure change?

Depending on the type of valve used for the grapple it could use power beyond to work the grapple. However the issue with a backhoe comes when it is removed from the tractor. Normally not an issue with a grapple as the valve likely is mounted on the tractor.

Yes, you can check the system with a pressure gauge and I would do that just to rule the hydraulics out of the equation. I would use a hydraulic tee to install the gauge and use a gauge that will read up to 4000psi. I would put the gauge on the power in port of the loader valve. Then start the tractor and watch the gauge without using any of the hydraulics. It should read only a few hundred pounds. Then try the loader test you did before and pay attention to the gauge. Without anything on the loader it should not be much more than 1000psi at anytime. Then curl the bucket till the cylinder stops and keep the trying to curl. This is when you should see the pressure climb to what the relief valve is set at. Usually somewhere around 2500psi.

If all that checks out then I would go back to looking at the engine. Also, is this a HST or gear drive tractor?

Mattbaker162 · Jan 2, 2023

K5lwq said:
Depending on the type of valve used for the grapple it could use power beyond to work the grapple. However the issue with a backhoe comes when it is removed from the tractor. Normally not an issue with a grapple as the valve likely is mounted on the tractor.

Yes, you can check the system with a pressure gauge and I would do that just to rule the hydraulics out of the equation. I would use a hydraulic tee to install the gauge and use a gauge that will read up to 4000psi. I would put the gauge on the power in port of the loader valve. Then start the tractor and watch the gauge without using any of the hydraulics. It should read only a few hundred pounds. Then try the loader test you did before and pay attention to the gauge. Without anything on the loader it should not be much more than 1000psi at anytime. Then curl the bucket till the cylinder stops and keep the trying to curl. This is when you should see the pressure climb to what the relief valve is set at. Usually somewhere around 2500psi.

If all that checks out then I would go back to looking at the engine. Also, is this a HST or gear drive tractor?

It's never had a backhoe attachment or anything like that so that valve has never been installed or removed from the tractor. The grapple is setup with a "3rd function kit" or diverter kit what ever you want to call it so don't see any issues with a possible power beyond valve issue of course I might be wrong and would love to hear any opinion if I might be. When it comes to testing I just want to be sure I understand what you are saying and that you are talking about teeing into the line that flows into the loader control valve. I've seen people test by simply having a connector and pluging into the ports that then flow to the loader functions and was wondering about your opinion on that type of testing. Personally while it might give you an idea of what power your pump is able to out put I'm never a fan of any test that is the "deadhead" way of testing but again I'm always willing to admit I may be wrong and will listen to others opinions. It is a hst drive type and with that is there a way to test functionality of that system with a pressure gauge or maybe some type of flow gauge. I've studied the systems extensively tracing lines and with the help of a diagram understanding how and where and the direction they flow. Now not sure if this is prevalent but up until it flows out of the filter and into the hst unit it's entirely flowed by the hydraulic lift pump so I'm not sure how you can test the pressure or if the pressure would be there in the line that returns to the tank. It's worth mentioning that I have made a mistake and forgot to mention that we are also experiencing a problem with the tractor starting. It takes a while of cranking over before it fires and if you don't turn the key and and wait and let the pump go for a while it will not start. Again with multiple test done I can confirm that I have not gotten any air bubbles being produced. I've watched the filter housing for bubbles being present or produced. I've cracked the bleeder valve and no bubbles are produced so I can confidently say that from the tank to the injection pump there is no air present in the system. Is there a way to test and confirm that the injection pump or the lines malfunction and causing air to enter the system although I'm not convinced that this is the issue I'd still like to be 100% certain. Now I'm also wondering if the injectors might be malfunction and not spraying properly or something. I will say that unfortunately my boss doesn't believe there is a problem and seems to chalk it up to just being an ls problem because a similar issue was present with a friend's tractor so any testing I will probably do off the clock until I can prove it is an issue and can be corrected. That being said has anyone else seen this issue with the mt225he. I apologize for such a long post and being so scattered brained about it. The only other questions I have is could valve clearance cause this issue could it being a 24.5hp engine possible being under powered or maybe the hydro pump or hst unit being under powered cause this is it possible the muffler might plugged or restricted being naturally aspirated and not having the force of a turbo to help the exhaust flow out. Is there any obvious things I have overlooked and should check?

K5lwq · Jan 2, 2023

Checking hydraulic pressure at a port will tell you pump pressure and relief setting but that is all. Teeing into the feed line allows you to see if the is a blockage or some other problem with the flow through the system. If there is low pressure without moving a valve then goes to high pressure when you move and deadhead a valve then the system is fine.

You gave more information that should be looked at. LS makes a lot of tractors that do not have a issue. They build a lot of the tractors for New Holland so they are a quality tractor. Being hard to start tells me either there is a glow plug issue, bad fuel or low compression. These would be my next test.

As a side note, a lot of people mistake low power on a HST because they push the petal down and the tractor bogs. When in high range going up a incline it sometimes is better to let up on the pedal some to allow the RPMs stay up on the engine.

Mattbaker162 · Jan 7, 2023

K5lwq said:
Checking hydraulic pressure at a port will tell you pump pressure and relief setting but that is all. Teeing into the feed line allows you to see if the is a blockage or some other problem with the flow through the system. If there is low pressure without moving a valve then goes to high pressure when you move and deadhead a valve then the system is fine.

You gave more information that should be looked at. LS makes a lot of tractors that do not have a issue. They build a lot of the tractors for New Holland so they are a quality tractor. Being hard to start tells me either there is a glow plug issue, bad fuel or low compression. These would be my next test.

As a side note, a lot of people mistake low power on a HST because they push the petal down and the tractor bogs. When in high range going up a incline it sometimes is better to let up on the pedal some to allow the RPMs stay up on the engine.

Ok I just want to make sure I understand the testing process and results of the hydraulic system so I can make an appropriate decision on what I'm going see. If I tee into the feed line it should be a consistent pressure and really only change one direction or the other when you open a valve and then close it? When I test hooking into a port it's going to or at least should rise and when say you curl the bucket until it can't then it should stop at the relief valve pressure? I'm also wondering if I should tee into the hst system for testing just to make sure there is no issue with that system separate from or at least what might be after the hydraulic system.
When it comes to the glow plugs and fuel I'm not arguing with you and I want to make that clear I'm just stating some facts and asking questions so I can make a proper diagnosis and that simply I'm not wrong or mistaken in what is happening. The problem has persisted threw multiple tanks of fuel most of which we ran to e or extremely low and we have ran the same diesel in other pieces of equipment without issue and the fuel has come from multiple sources and the filter has been changed. So with that to me almost entirely eliminates a fuel issue but I'm thinking about draining the tank and via a 5 gallon bucket with entirely different fuel lines pump and filter run the tractor and just see what happens to 100% rule out the fuel system. When it comes to the glow plugs the only thing i can say that has lead me to not look into the system yet and I could be wrong but the problem with hard staring is every single time we start the tractor weather it be winter summer the tractor sitting overnight or only being shut off for a minute a two. No I understand that diesels fire under compression and the assistance of glow plugs is needed when the engine is still very warm or at least operating temp the issue with hard starting shouldn't be there or at least it should be lessen when it's warm vs cold. At this point I feel like I should mention I've noticed that if you flip the key and try to start the tractor "too soon" it will not fire unless you turn the key off turn it back on and wait to attempt to start for a period of time. Now I've disconnected the fuel lines and the pump is flowing fine with the proper pressure. I understand that when trying to go up an incline in high range it could bog the engine down and the need to lessen the pedal. This problem however seems excessive like when traveling down the road at top speed and hit any type of incline it dies down it does in all the gear ranges not just high and not just on steeper inclines and even with no attachments on the back. I also understand that of you attempted to lift a heavy load it would grunt or bog and the fact that we have a bent cylinder defiantly contributes to the issue but it happens when you do anything with the loader empty or not. I understand how many tractors ls has made and tried to explain to my boss "dude if this was just how ls is like you seem to think why did have to create a thread about it because I literally searched for hours and came up empty." So I am thoroughly convinced that there is an issue here and hope to figure it out to help others. I appreciate all of your help and responses and apologize for the drawn out responses. And quickly about a deadhead test while I said I'm not fond of them in this instance I understand how that could be a beneficial test to test the relief valve and making sure the pump is able to reach proper pressure. Other than instances like this I prefer a flow test to better determine the pump functionality and the ability to test on multiple spots on the system to determine exactly where a problem might be coming from.

K5lwq · Jan 7, 2023

I think you have a good understanding of the test except you can test both resting pressure and relief pressure from the feed line to the valve. You do not have to move the gauge to a port.

Once gauge is installed start the tractor and observe the pressure. It will not be high at this point. If you get a higher pressure reading with the valves centered then you have a blockage somewhere. If it is low then start to curl the bucket and the problem should climb. Then hold it till the relief valve opens and that is where it is set. Normally 2500psi or so.

To test HST pressure you will have to find out where to tap the gauge in. I do not know that so you would need the service manual or someone that knows how to direct you on that.

Now that the hard starting happens even when the engine is warm that is a different issue and I agree likely not a glow plug problem. I now would be looking at doing a compression test. Also I would make sure the intake is clear as in clean air filter and no rats nest. Other than that, having injectors tested may be in order.

Also this being a 2020 model it may make sense to let a dealer test it out as it may be repaired under warranty.