Comparison Kubota MMM or JD for Cyclone Rake

Aviatordave · Feb 28, 2014

Hello Folks,

I'm in research mode. I currently own two tractors, a Craftsman lawn tractor and a Kubota BX2230 with a FEL and rear blade. I live on 10 acres of heavily wooded land and have two small yards to mow. Grass is not my problem . . . leaves however, forced me to purchase a Cyclone Rake. Love the rake! The Craftsman wasn't so fond of it. Turns out the Craftsman (17hp mower basically) doesn't like pulling a loaded rake up small inclines. The Craftsman is old and I don't feel like it owes me anything anymore. It's developing lots of problems since hooking up the rake and I'm not of the mind to put any money into it. I've decided to upgrade. My wife and I are planning on beating back the woods to some degree so we have more yard for the kids to play in and so the trees aren't quite so close. (When I tell people we live in the woods, I'm really not kidding!)

So I don't want an MTD manufactured tractor to pull the cyclone rake. I want something built better and have kind of started looking at possibly a used John Deere 445 with a 54 or 60" deck. Seems like I can pick one up with about 700-1000 hrs for something in the ball park of $4,000ish. I'm not there yet. For those of you not familiar with the Cyclone Rake, you need a specific attachment for the model of tractor mower deck you're attaching it to. Instead of going with the JD or some other tractor, I could also buy a MMM for the Kubota and use it to pull the rake. (The Cyclone Rake is the Z-10 with the 415 gallon bag so it will hold A LOT of leaves. If they're damp, it can get REALLY heavy. It has basically killed the Craftsman.)

For some reason I just don't want to use the Kubota for mowing and leaf collection. I currently use it for snow and landscaping type stuff. (I live in lower southwest Michigan)
Am I crazy for not wanting to use the Kubota for leaf pickup? I like the idea of having a dedicated grass/leaf machine. A MMM would run me around $1000 and the parts to hook the rake to the MMM and the three point hitch, probably another $500. From a money standpoint, if that's all I was concerned about, the Kubota MMM upgrade is the clear winner over the JD 445.

What I like about the JD 445 is that it seems to be a tried and true workhorse, strong (should pull the rake uphill while loaded with wet leaves/grass) and takes a beating. Seems like it would be a good upgrade from the Craftsman (RIP).

Any advice you folks could offer? I'm not stuck on the JD 445, it just kind of surfaces as a consistent good tractor. I'm completely uninterested in anything from a big box store made, ultimately, by MTD or anything else in that range of lawn tractor. I really just want something that is strong and dependable to pull the rake around.

Thanks in advance for any words of wisdom!
-Dave

CHDinCT · Feb 28, 2014

Dave, I don't think you're crazy at all for looking into a dedicated mower/leaf pick up machine. In fact, that's the basic set up I have with my 1993 Wheel Horse 520H and BX25. And, I have the mmm for the BX and even purchased the equipment to hook up my Cyclone Rake to my BX25 - didn't cost $500, maybe $200 but I don't recall the specific costs. I will warn that you will have some maintenance and repair issues from time to time with an older, heavy duty garden tractor, but fewer problems I'm sure than with your Craftsman. In fact, that's why I bought the hardware to hook my CR to the BX25. A few falls ago, my Wheel Horse fried a voltage regulator before I could complete the leaf clean up work, so I had to finish up with my BX. Now I have it as a back up should the WH go down for any reason. It's also great to finish up doing dirt work or other loader/BH work with the BX25, then jump on the Wheel Horse to mow the lawn. No need to mount/dismount a MMM on the BX.

Having owned a CR since 2004, I know that it can get very heavy when the leaves are damp and it's a lot of weight for any lawn tractor to pull even on a flat surface, never mind any kind of incline. I've always thought their ads showing low end tractors hooked up to a Cyclone Rake were a little misleading. I bet a lot of tractors pulling these rakes aren't rated for the weight once it's full of wet or even dry leaves.

I'll end by throwing in a plug for getting an older WH garden tractor. The rear ends are all cast iron/steel and they're very durable as a pulling tractor. Depending on where in the USA you are (don't know about MI), they're pretty plentiful, usually cheaper than a JD and just as tough. Parts are still readily available as far as I've seen, though Toro is starting to price things a bit dearly. On the downside, you probably won't see many with decks larger than 48", though they made a 60" for the top HP models.

Aviatordave · Mar 4, 2014

Hi Chris,

Thanks for the response. Nice to have an ally in the "I'm not crazy" argument! Thank you for the heads up on the Wheel Horse. I'll have to look into those as well. I'm really not interested in spending $4000 on a JD or similar but realize that the basic $1500-2500 range is just a well appointed lawn mower branded as a garden tractor. Do you have an opinion on whether a hydrostatic drive or a manual transmission would be a better choice? (Does anybody else for that matter?) The problems I'm seeing with the Craftsman are transmission related. It's got a hydrostatic drive and I've got a gut feeling that pulling the CR causes it to overheat quickly. I could be wrong there. There are other problems with it as well such as the PTO not working anymore. Last season it was just a frozen idler pulley. A quick deck removal and a few taps on the pulley with a block of wood solved it for last summer's mowing but this past fall the PTO won't engage again and the idler pulley is free and clear. The problem isn't as obvious now. What is obvious is that it didn't have any problems prior to the CR being hooked up. It could all be coincidence but if I were a gambling man, I'd put my money on it being overtaxed by the CR. Anyway, I was having thoughts about a manual transmission perhaps being a bit simpler and maybe lasting longer.
Thoughts?

Thanks again,
-Dave

P.S. Thanks for the pic. The WH/CR setup looks nice!

Baby Grand · Mar 6, 2014

Dave,
You're definitely not crazy. I went through the same dilemma when our Craftsman started blowing head gaskets and shearing flywheel pins. Ended up getting a Kubota G5200 which has 33% less horsepower than the Craftsman (14 vs 21), but has a diesel 3 cyl engine, weighs 2 to 3 times what the Craftsman did and outperforms it in every way except top sped, which I don't give a fig about. It's about 15 - 20 years old and required a bit of wrenching the first year, but seems to be very happy for the past two years. It pulls like it doesn't even know the Cyclone Rake is back there and full of green grass clippings.

CHDinCT · Mar 8, 2014

Aviatordave said:
Hi Chris,

Thanks for the response. Nice to have an ally in the "I'm not crazy" argument! Thank you for the heads up on the Wheel Horse. I'll have to look into those as well. I'm really not interested in spending $4000 on a JD or similar but realize that the basic $1500-2500 range is just a well appointed lawn mower branded as a garden tractor. Do you have an opinion on whether a hydrostatic drive or a manual transmission would be a better choice? (Does anybody else for that matter?) The problems I'm seeing with the Craftsman are transmission related. It's got a hydrostatic drive and I've got a gut feeling that pulling the CR causes it to overheat quickly. I could be wrong there. There are other problems with it as well such as the PTO not working anymore. Last season it was just a frozen idler pulley. A quick deck removal and a few taps on the pulley with a block of wood solved it for last summer's mowing but this past fall the PTO won't engage again and the idler pulley is free and clear. The problem isn't as obvious now. What is obvious is that it didn't have any problems prior to the CR being hooked up. It could all be coincidence but if I were a gambling man, I'd put my money on it being overtaxed by the CR. Anyway, I was having thoughts about a manual transmission perhaps being a bit simpler and maybe lasting longer.
Thoughts?

Thanks again,
-Dave

P.S. Thanks for the pic. The WH/CR setup looks nice!

For pure pulling power and reliability, the gear transmissions are hard to beat, be it a JD, or other higher end garden tractor. On the other hand, there are plenty of GT's out there with very reliable, strong hydro transmissions. The HST in my WH is an Eaton. Don't think they're made anymore but they are all cast iron and steel - no aluminum like you find today for the casing, etc. If you stay JD, make sure you check which Tuff Torque HST is in the model you're looking at. I know on the newer JD's, the K46 is known for early failures. I'm not the expert on JD (though I did have an X485 for a few years) but the K5x series and up should be the minimum for pulling your Cyclone Rake. I think the old 45x series JD garden tractors had the top of the line K92 HST, which is what they're still putting in the X700 series premium tractors.

I can tell you that my WH started pulling my CR back in the fall of 2004 (that's when I bought the CR) and it's never had a problem yet transmission wise (knock wood). I did have to replace the wheel hubs last fall due to wear around the key slot that resulted in a dead spot going from forward to reverse and vice versa. Not sure, however, if that was related to pulling the CR or just due to 20 years of use. My WH has about 800 hours. Before I got a BX back in 2008, I used the WH for snow removal and everything else since it was my only tractor. Honestly, as long as you check out any used GT, you should get good service out of any major brand unit like JD, Wheel Horse, Ingersol, Simplicity, and others I can't think of right now. I do know from shopping used over the years that JDs do run more on the used market, but I suppose you would get some of that back if you ever re-sell it yourself. Good luck.

Aviatordave · Mar 11, 2014

Well ya sold me. I found a used Wheel Horse 520H and am picking it up this Saturday! As soon as the snow melts I'll get the CR hooked up to it. Talked to CR on the phone a few times now . . . It's gonna cost around $379 to refit the rake to the horse. (New mower deck discharge adapter, new hitch bar and new piece of 10" hose. The hose on the Craftsman will be too short.) Hmmm . . . just had a thought. I still have the "scrap" hose that I trimmed off of the original hose to fit it to the Craftsman . . . I wonder if I can find or make a sleeve and a pair of large hose clamps to couple the two pieces back together . . .
Anyway, excited about the horse! Thanks for the input!

-Dave

CHDinCT · Mar 12, 2014

Aviatordave said:
Well ya sold me. I found a used Wheel Horse 520H and am picking it up this Saturday! As soon as the snow melts I'll get the CR hooked up to it. Talked to CR on the phone a few times now . . . It's gonna cost around $379 to refit the rake to the horse. (New mower deck discharge adapter, new hitch bar and new piece of 10" hose. The hose on the Craftsman will be too short.) Hmmm . . . just had a thought. I still have the "scrap" hose that I trimmed off of the original hose to fit it to the Craftsman . . . I wonder if I can find or make a sleeve and a pair of large hose clamps to couple the two pieces back together . . .
Anyway, excited about the horse! Thanks for the input!

-Dave

Dave, congrat's on your new horse. I think you'll be happy with it assuming it was reasonably cared for. Quick story on my 520H transmission. I bought mine used with about 125 hours on it. It was my first HST, so the first thing I did was change the transmission oil. When I did that, I got air into the HST, which is normal and just needs to be run a while to remove it. Not knowing that, I though there was something wrong with the HST as it would go, then slow, then pick up speed, etc. So I called a few WH dealers about getting it diagnosed/repaired. One of the places I called (that sold WH for years) said he didn't remember ever working on one of these transmissions. I ended up bringing it to another dealer who called me a day later to tell me it was just air in the HST and they just ran it until it was removed. Boy did I feel stupid, but also relieved. Now I know better.

One mod I did recently to my WH was to add an aftermarket foot peddle for the HST. You may find tying up your right hand to run the HST lever annoying if you're use to a foot-controlled HST tractor. That's the way they all come now for good reason. Anyway, once upon a time, WH sold a kit to convert many of there lever controlled HST's to foot controlled. I found a guy near me in CT that reproduces the kit for a reasonable price. Here's a link for you to check it out. Maybe after you've used yours a while you can decide if the hand lever is good enough. I will say, this was the best mod I made to mine, though I haven't really made any other significant ones come to think of it. but mowing is much more enjoyable now with the foot control. Best of all, you can leave the hand lever connected too, with a small mod. I tend to use the foot pedal for forward and the lever for reverse.

http://www.wheelhorseforum.com/topic/30880-custom-hydro-foot-pedal/

and

http://www.wheelhorseforum.com/topic/36496-custom-hydro-foot-pedal-kit-complete-kits-now-for-sale/

and

http://www.wheelhorseforum.com/topic/36496-custom-hydro-foot-pedal-kit-complete-kits-now-for-sale/

By the way, this is a great site for all things Wheel Horse. While I love TBN and spend most of my on-line "tractor time" here, there's just not the same collective support for WH here as in Red Square.

CHDinCT · Mar 12, 2014

By the way, here's a pic of my HST pedal on my WH

Aviatordave · Mar 14, 2014

Thanks for the info on the air in the transmission issue. Always good to know more.
I may consider that pedal mod down the road. My BX is a foot pedal and the Craftsman is a hand lever so I'm used to both. The guy I'm buying the tractor from is a trained mechanic and from our conversations on the phone has kept up on all the maintenance items in the manuals for everything on the factory recommended schedules. Assuming all this is true, I should be getting a machine in pretty good condition. Picking it up tomorrow. Already cleared a space in the garage for it. ;-)

Nice pic on the pedal mod. Looks easy to use.