KAMA TS 254C Hydraulic Problems

[Adellaci]

I had my backhoe mounted and could not operate my bucket. I thought at first it maybe the pump (316), removed pump sent it out to be checked. They confirmed the operating pressure and volume/rev. Didn't find any thing wrong. I remount the pump and tried operating it again. I did notice that my hitch didn't come up to full height. Noticing that i removed the backhoe, and the bucket began to operate again. Anyone have a similar experience, or may know the cause of this?

Chip if you read this, i got the tractor not to long ago, and could use a run down on consumables that should be replaced, not knowing how long they have been in the tractor. I did do a motor oil and filter change out. Drain all fluids, flushed, and replaced. I did use the UTF through out the tractor, not good?. I did notice in other threats, heavy discussions on oils to use. apart from that i have done nothing else to the old girl.

 

[greg_g]

Describe how/where the backhoe hydraulic hoses connect to your tractor.

Whereas UTF will work, it is not the optimum fluid for tractors with separate sumps. Like yours. UTF is typically too thin for your gears, to thick for your hydraulics - and may contain additives that could be harmful to some internals. It's more appropriate to use gear oil for gear sumps (front/rear diff, tranny, shuttle) and hydraulic fluid for hydraulic sumps (rear lift, steering).

//greg//

 

[Paddy]

I had an issue that might be the same. I friend used my tractor and there was interference between the 3PH and a tow bar. It was fighting, tring to lift for many hours. The tow bar was very bent! The issue was the 3PH would not lift with out having to "bump" the FEL lever. I even disconnected the FEL from the circuit, but then I lost my "bump the FEL lever" trick so it stoped working all together. Re-kooked up the FEL and I could get it working by my trick. In the end, one of the many valves on the 3PH assembly, located under the seat, was the cause. I replased the entire 3pH valve *** and it worked good as new.

I'm guessing the "bump action" was just seating the valve just enough to get the flow in the right direction instead of by passing.

Good luck, these things can be hard to isolate. Parts are cheep and if a part deoes not solve it, you have a spare for the future

Patrick T

 

[bluechip]

There are a couple ways to plumb the backhoe. Some will not allow use of the loader and/or 3 point while the backhoe is installed. If you run everything off one pump, you need to hook the hoses from the pump either to the lift box or the backhoe resevoir. I feel the lift box does not have enough oil to properly run the chinese backhoe due to multiple large cylinders. We use the backhoe resvoir to run the loader and backhoe, but since the return line must go to the backhoe tank, we cannot feed the 3 point. Its OK because with the backhoe on you dont really want to use the 3 point.

We have consumables, engine oil and filters is the most critical. Never run the hydraulic pump with out a complete flow back to the tank (no loose disconnected quick connect fittings). Never rest your foot on the clutch when the tractor is moving. There is a lever by your left heal that will disengage the pto AND the rear mounted pump (do you have a rear mounted pump? or is it a newer tractor?) it took me 4 years to get the factory to mount the pump on the engine.... Oh... I cut that lever by your left heal to about 1inch long, you normally wont use it but with pliers you still can when it is cut, and you won't bump it by accident as easily.... what else can I tell you?

 

[Adellaci]

Kama TS 254C Tractor, TZC04 Front Loader, 3 Point Backhoe LW-6, Yangdong Y385T Diesel Engine
Year Built on all three items: 2003.12 did not get the build date on the engine

Backhoe is driven by a Prince Hydraulic Pump mounted on the PTO shaft. That is a pump i added.

For the Three Point Hitch and Front End Loader; Hydraulic leave the reservoir from below the left hand side under the seat, through the filter, to the inlet of the CBN-E314 Hydraulic Pump, exterior mounted just above the PTO shaft. Discharge of the pump goes to the control valves for the front end loader. Leave there and goes to a device on the right hand side under the seat which contains either a flow regulator, pressure relief, or back pressure regulator, not what its actual function is. I'm assuming that from there, the fluid goes to the three point hitch control and/or the reservoir.

After testing some more, it seem that if the Three point hitch level doesn't not reach the demanded height the front end loader won't work. I'm assuming the that at min i have to rebuilt three point hitch raising control.

As far as the lever by my left heel, it is not a problem. I use it from time to time to dis-engage the pumps. For the Prince pump i use the lever on the left hand side for speed select and dis-engage, and the one by my left heel for the CBN-E314 pump disengage, which will also disengage the Prince pump.

You mentioned that you got the factory to mount the pump on the engine, it is possible to modify my tractor to allow for that style pump?

My starter stopped working last weekend, so i removed it and dismantled it. I Found that the commutator was pitted and the brushes, brush holders and winding filled with oil, grease, dirt, and water. I clean every thing up and meg'ed it, has a couple megs to ground. I chucked up the rotor in my drill press and took a fine metal file to the commutator, removing enough material to have a half way descent surface. I resurfaced the brushes but didn't want to remove to much material considering there is not that much brush left. I reassembled the starter and now it starts better then it has ever started, but i would like to replace the commutator and brushes, do you have or able to get those parts? I have done commutator replacements in large DC motor, which, starter = smaller DC motor.

 

[Bob Rooks]

I chucked up the rotor in my drill press and took a fine metal file to the commutator, removing enough material to have a half way descent surface.

Just curious if you undercut the mica also?

 

[greg_g]

After testing some more, it seem that if the Three point hitch level doesn't not reach the demanded height the front end loader won't work.

I don't understand this part. Are you referring to the fluid level in the sump? or the "level" (position) you put the lift lever? Because unless you have a need for draft control, the outer lever should be in the full UP position - and you raise/lower the rear lift with the inner lever. Having the outer lever anywhere other than full UP will interfere with the process. And since the FEL is on the same circuit with the TPH, it too could be affected

But at the same time, the main sump may not be big enough to supply all three devices. Your BH may have sucked enough fluid outa the sump, to where the FEL and TPH are starved. Or does the BH have it's own reservoir? If not, you may want to consider adding one.

Adding an engine-driven pump depends upon how much clearance you have up front. It would have to mount either in front of the steering pump (close to the radiator) or in tandem with it (close to the starter).

//greg//

 

[Adellaci]

Just curious if you undercut the mica also?

No i did not under cut the mica, it is flush with the surface.

 

[Adellaci]

Greg i was not talk about the fluid level, but the height of the TPH arms.

I all ready separated out the backhoe, it has its own system all together. It's reservoir is attached to it. Originally, if you want to use the backhoe you would have had to disconnect the hydraulic pump from the TPH and front end loader, then connect it up to the backhoe. I didn't like that so i added the Prince PTO hydraulic pump.

 

[greg_g]

Separate reservoir, good. That defines two independent hydraulic circuits - BH and TPH/FEL - which means technically, whatever you're doing with the hoe should have nothing to do with lift or loader performance.

So let's back up a moment. I originally understood that hooking up the BH killed the TPH/FEL circuit. But then you wrote "it seem that if the Three point hitch level doesn't not reach the demanded height the front end loader won't work". That suggests that the TPH/FEL circuit is actually working (albeit not to your satisfaction) with the BH installed. And most recently you wrote "I all ready separated out the backhoe". So forgive me if I'm still a bit confused here.

Would you be so kind as to redefine which problem(s) still exist?

//greg//

 

[bluechip]

I too thought the issue was a plumbing issue, but since the backhoe has an independent hydraulic system, its impact on the tractor has to be the weight on the 3 point. I suspect the backhoe exceeds the lift capacity of the 3 point. We normally set these up by shortening the vertical links as much as possible and carrying the backhoe at the lowest 3 point setting. If the 3 point position lever is asking for the 3 point to lift, the valve will be open and the pump will maintain pressure against that line, now when you try to move your loader, the oil is diverted to the loader which begins to move the loader, at the same time, the weight on the 3 point pressurizes the return line and you have a battle to see which is stronger; the weight of the backhoe pushing against the 3 point lift cylinder or the pressure coming back from the return side of the loader valve. Quick test, see if the loader works OK with the 3 point valve in the lower position.

 

[Adellaci]

Yes it does work with the TPH lever down

 

[bluechip]

There you go. The backhoe should be used with the 3 point arms in the lowest position.

 

[Adellaci]

But when i first got it i could use both in the up position

 

[greg_g]

But when i first got it i could use both in the up position

Consider the possibility that doing so weakened the pump. As such, it may now be starting to bypass, which - if true - has effectively reduced the original TPH lift capacity (which - according to my book - is less than 900# in the first place)

//greg//

 

[DwayneB]

Consider the possibility that doing so weakened the pump. As such, it may now be starting to bypass, which - if true - has effectively reduced the original TPH lift capacity (which - according to my book - is less than 900# in the first place)

//greg//

I've got to agree with Greg here. I'd say you've weakened your pump or your o-rings in the cylinder. The pump is more likely though.

If I remember correctly that backhoe weighs around 1100lbs. The hydraulic pump is easy to rebuild and the o-ring kits just cost $25.

For $25 dollars I would get a kit and take the pump apart just to see if that's the problem.

 

[Adellaci]

Agreed