Lenarguy
Bronze Member
Anyone know if the Kama is now using a Deutz engine and getting into the U.S.? It was my understanding that Kama was not EPA certified for anything bigger than 35 hp.
Kama 80 hp?
- Thread starter Lenarguy
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bluechip
Veteran Member
The 80 and 100HP KAMAs have used a chinese deutz all along. It is not EPA certified, but than neither is the Chinese Perkins in the similar sized Fotons and they seem to be making their way stateside, so I suppose anything is possible.
Don't know about the Kama but I bought a FarmPro 8240 this Fall and I asked the dealer about EPA issues beyond 2005. He said FarmPro would be selling the 82 series in 2006. I also emailed the engine manufacturer in China (perkins) and asked if their engine was EPA certified for 2006. They said they would send the required EPA Certificate for any engine/Phaser 1004-4T I bought in 2006 for installation in an agriculture vehicle.
bluechip
Veteran Member
I have been told by the foton factory in China a few months ago that the perkins engine they use is not epa certified, but I suppose this could have changed. Some chinese companies will provide you any kind of document or label you ask for, including logos like NIKE, Rolex, etc... It could be that the engine was close enough to a Perkins that they could use the same engine family code as a certified Perkins engine, it could also be that this is a new development for 2006 which is great news for the Chinese tractor industry as a whole.
I have recently heard that there is a 40HP engine that may have EPA approval now, once that is confirmed, that will be the first engine over 35 HP that has certifiecation that I am aware of and I ask people in China monthly about the progress of these bigger engines.
I have confirmed that the Duetz engine is not yet EPA certified for the big 80 and 100 HP KAMAs and due to the level of interest in the USA, I do not expect any change here.
I have recently heard that there is a 40HP engine that may have EPA approval now, once that is confirmed, that will be the first engine over 35 HP that has certifiecation that I am aware of and I ask people in China monthly about the progress of these bigger engines.
I have confirmed that the Duetz engine is not yet EPA certified for the big 80 and 100 HP KAMAs and due to the level of interest in the USA, I do not expect any change here.
why not just send an inquiry to the engine manufacturer in China requesting the certificate # and confirm that the certificate was issued by the EPA and meets the 2006 requirement? The factory in China was built in 1998 and engines began rolling off the line in 2002. I guess we'll know soon if the tractors won't meet EPA approval (one month). But I assume that confirmation would be easily accomplished by a few phone calls or emails.
EFC
Veteran Member
You’re a funny guy, if it is that easy let us know what you find, it should only take a few minutes.
What you don’t realize is that when China copies a product they copy it right down the the label with the EPA certification #. You can ask the EPA if the # is valid and they will say yes but it really isn’t. This is the great part, If you import that tractor and you checked with the EPA and they cleared the # but while randomly/accidentally checking your load in port they realize the EPA # and the engine series do not match, you as the importer otherwise know as the manufacturer is the one that is going to take the heat not the Chinese factory.
We would like to think that China would not lie to us and in their mind their not lying. Buy telling us what we want to hear they are saving face for us which they believe to be honorable. It is all about saving face. When I was in China trying to get problems worked out with Kama I was in the factory trying to figure out why we could not get the quality control we were looking for. It was explained to me that if a worker was assembling a product that he knew would not work buy bringing it to his supervisors attention he would be causing his supervisor to loose face and that would be the worst insult sometime worthy of being fired immediately. He was supposed to assemble the widget and smile. China will tell you what you want to here to save face for you but also save face with the government by selling the units needed to keep the payments for the factory made to the state. I wish it was as simple as making a few phone calls.
Buck
What you don’t realize is that when China copies a product they copy it right down the the label with the EPA certification #. You can ask the EPA if the # is valid and they will say yes but it really isn’t. This is the great part, If you import that tractor and you checked with the EPA and they cleared the # but while randomly/accidentally checking your load in port they realize the EPA # and the engine series do not match, you as the importer otherwise know as the manufacturer is the one that is going to take the heat not the Chinese factory.
We would like to think that China would not lie to us and in their mind their not lying. Buy telling us what we want to hear they are saving face for us which they believe to be honorable. It is all about saving face. When I was in China trying to get problems worked out with Kama I was in the factory trying to figure out why we could not get the quality control we were looking for. It was explained to me that if a worker was assembling a product that he knew would not work buy bringing it to his supervisors attention he would be causing his supervisor to loose face and that would be the worst insult sometime worthy of being fired immediately. He was supposed to assemble the widget and smile. China will tell you what you want to here to save face for you but also save face with the government by selling the units needed to keep the payments for the factory made to the state. I wish it was as simple as making a few phone calls.
Buck
circleTfarm
Member
do you know if there is a big diference between farmpro and the kama? we have been looking at fonton(farm pro) units for purchase in the spring, now that I saw the Kama with 80hp we will check those out to,, dollar for dollar are they about the same? we know nothing about Kama but are going to consider all our options.
Funny...here's the link http://www.epa.gov/otaq/certdata.htm#largeng
EFC
Veteran Member
I guess the years we spent working with the EPA could have been saved by just talking with you. All an overseas company has to do to get certification on an engine series is claim it is identical to an already certified engine and show test results to verify. you can forge the test results and lie about the engine. It wont pass the EPA spot check though.
Deutz got burned on this a year ago. They imported a series of tractors that had an EPA certification # on them but during an EPA spot check in a test facility the engine didn’t pass. They were fined big-time and those tractors had to be exported back to the factory. Maybe they should have called you to straighten it out.
Buck
Deutz got burned on this a year ago. They imported a series of tractors that had an EPA certification # on them but during an EPA spot check in a test facility the engine didn’t pass. They were fined big-time and those tractors had to be exported back to the factory. Maybe they should have called you to straighten it out.
Buck