Hydroponics - My new addiction...

[DrDan]

ejb,
Yup it's too **** easy - in addition I really don't like that produce laying out and people coughing and sneezing all over it during the flu season.

I feel pretty good being able to produce my own greens and also added a Reverse Osmosis unit to filter my well water. I want nothing to do with any municipal water plan.

Went on this low carbohydrate/high protein diet about 8 months ago and one thing led to another - I soon found myself a conoseur of fine food and gave up on that which I feel is a contamination source. Now all I need to do is find a nice fat Herford and a butcher who knows how to cut prime steaks! LOL

DrDan

 

[DFB]

Earlier I went to the USDA market price daily reports page to see what different types of hydroponically grown produce was goin for (Boston Terminal). Point of origin is also listed for most all fruits and produce too. I'm probably preaching to the choir here but just for grins /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif

Asparagus... Colombia, Peru, Mexico
Acorn Squash...Mexico
Blackberries...Costa Rica
Blueberries...Chile
Broccoli....... Mexico
Brusselsprouts....Mexico
Cukes...Honduras, Mexico
Cantaloupes...Costa Rica
Eggplant...Mexico, Netherlands, Italy
Endive...Netherlands, Belgium
Grapes... Chile
Green Beans...Guatemala
Green Bell Peppers...Spain, Mexico
Green Onions...Mexico
Honeydew...Honduras
Hot Peppers...Dominican Republic
Kale...Mexico
Leeks...Guatemala, Mexico
Mesclun mix...Mexico
Nectarines...Chile
Okra...Honduras, Mexico
Peaches...Chile
Pears...Argentina
Peas...Guatemala
Plums...Chile
Rabe...Mexico
Raddichio...Guatamala
Radishes...Guatemala, Mexico
Rasberries...Mexico, Chile
SwissChard...Mexico
Tomatoes...******, Mexico, Netherlands
Zucchini...Mexico
Watermelon...Mexico

Seems the lettuce is mostly domestic though, AZ,CA, PA Greenhouse and New England Hydroponic. Also Ontario Hydroponic. Maybe there'll be an Ohio Hydroponic too /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif.

DFB

 

[DrDan]

DFB

Ooooh I smell raw sewage! LOL I wnder how effective a cold water wash is with E. coli bacteria. Scares me!

I'm selling all the lettuce I can produce to individuals for $1.25 a head and $2.00 an once for basil. Wholesale is a last resort! As soon as the Farmers Market opens we will sell through them. Farmer's Markets are becoming "very" popular since people get to meet the grower and know what they are buying.

Do you remember last summer when they had the outbreak of E. Coli caused diarrhea in people who consumed certain shipments of cantelope? If you can boil it or heat it to kill bacteria I trust it, but produce that you eat raw, I keep a wary eye on.

DrDan

 

[gerard]

Nice hobby!! Sounds like it's time to develop a relationship with some local restaurants. I know in NYC this type of work is big for fresh herbs and things for the higher end restaurants. A dependable supply certified organic should be pretty easy to move and then you have a hobby that you have to pay income taxes on!!

 

[DFB]

DrDan,

Yes you should always set out to get the best price you can all the time. Early and/or out of season can command a good price. Certainly don't sell yourself short. This past season I had tomatoes to sell at our market 3 weeks ahead of anyone else.

I'm curious as to how much does an average head of your lettuce weigh?

DFB

 

[DrDan]

DFB

I am mainly growing Butter Head Bibb lettuce and there are no heavy ribs in the heads. It is all edible and tender. Probably most heads are about 7 to 9 oz. I am also starting to grow Grand Rapids Red whcih is leafy variety.

DrDan

 

[ejb]

Dan, you really have re-sparked my interest in this...and I pretty much have my wife convinced, but with any luck I hope to get something underway this summer so that I can be up and running by next year.

A few more questions. You had said your setup costs around $18-20K (which is a lot more than I was hoping to spend), but you mentioned you couldn't/didn't do much of the work yourself...if you had to guess, how much could a slightly above average handy-person save by doing most things themselves?

and what would be the short-list of things you would have done differently if you had to do it again?

Other suggestions?

PS: you said you added a "Reverse Osmosis unit to filter my well"...what are you trying to filter out?

 

[DrDan]

Dear EJB

Yes - Do it - You will never regret it... You see we are at the point in our lives (kids are all gone) when we wanted something for "US" and could care less about the expense to keep it comfortable and growing. I had a lady come in my clinic who now owns 30 greenhouses... I asked her at what temperature she maintains it. Her reply, "72F". I asked why she kept it so warm. She replied, "Because I want things to grow"! I think it was that day that I went home and changed the temperature from 55 to 72 and things started popping into bloom and we started enjoying the work out there. Yes at night it drops back to 68 but during the day the sun assists. On a sunny day the power vents actually come on to drop the temperature from 80+ back down to 72. It also refreshes the air and recharges the house with CO2 which is important.

As far as what I could have saved it goes like this. Concrete was $5000 Labor to build the house $3500 Plumbing $1500 and believe it or not electric wiring was gratus. Will never figure that one out, but I'm not going to argue the point.

Anyhow if you want to wire it, plumb it and do the construction you can save a gob. You will need an auger for your tractor because there are about 30 some 4" 18" diameter holes that need to be drilled for the columns. You will also need a transit to get those columns exactly where they are supposed to be and plumb. That is the most important part! Get the columns where they belong and the rest is a piece of cake! If they are out of wack you are in for a fight all the way. Heck - get the greenhouse up and worry about hydro units later. You can alwys build them out of PVC pipe. I went with commercial hydro units for ease of cleaning between crops, but I am building a very large unit for outdoors out of PVC.

What would I have done different? First of all, I would have put in radiant heat in the floor plus hang the Modine overhead heater. The floor heat would be the main heat and in an emergency the Modine would carry it. Floor heat keeps both yours and the plants feet warm and happy. That's important for good growth. If you aren't familiar with in-floor heat, check out Radiantec's web site. That's the system I bought for my shop building and it was easy to install and very complete. I also recommend the IGC company for a greenhouse. The Ranger 2000 starter kit is complete all the way. Nothing more to buy (well we bought a few extra Tech screws).

Also make sure your greenhouse is orientated North and South. You get very little sun from the North and you can build a solid "insulated" wall on the north. That will save on heat.

What else - oh ya - I wish I had built it 10 years ago. My life would be much simpler as a grower rather than a vet. We are planning on expanding as the demand is developed and hopefully we will reach the point where we can just stay home and grow beautiful plants for people. Looks like it will happen.

Have fun and keep me posted on your progress.

DrDan

 

[ejb]

Thanks once again Dan...I'll keep you posted, b ut progress will be slow at this point. If we move forward, it wouldn't happen until at least the 2+ feet of snow on the ground is gone...I'll spend the next few months doing research and educating myself about the various possibilities.

Maybe by this time next year I'll be eating some fresh salad greens from my own greenhouse...and selling some to pay for the heat.

Thanks for sharing your expertise.

 

[DrDan]

EJB

Oh heck EJ don't wait - sounds like you need some green growing right now. Call Mark at Urban Gardens and get one of them little TurboGarden Ebb & Flow units with a Sun System 400 watt metal hallide grow light and you'll have all the salad you can eat in 4 weeks. It's only about 2' X 4' and a beautiful little unit. Here's one with basil growing in it... Tell Mark I told ya to call and I'm sure he'll give ya a good deal.

<font color="green"> Have you ever tasted fresh picked Basil in a salad? Mmmmm yummmm! I sell it like crazy for $2 an oz.</font>

DrDan

 

[MarkV]

Dan,
Thanks so much for sharing all of the information and photos of your set up. Very impressive and I am very envious. It seems to me that the pricing was reasonable and I can't get over how quickly you are producing such nice plants.

MarkV

 

[DFB]

DrDan,

Being that its located so nearby to me I was able to stop in at the Urban Gardener's store yesterday. Gave me an opportunity to view the available products and I was also able to see some of the different type grow systems in operation too. It was an informative trip for me. There was a friendly and knowledgable staff working there to answer my many questions. Being amid the grow lights and plants sure was a pleasant diversion on a cold winter's day. /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif They also supplied me with the trade magazine MAXIMUM YIELD. www.maximumyield.com

Talkin' some more along the lines of direct marketing what ya grow, this little side trip also gave me a chance to visit one of the newest "natural foods" store around here. A WildOats store just opened in December. Supposed to offer locally produced and manufactured products including organic and locally grown produce. A supermarket sized store, the amount of business they were doing was phenomenal. 3/4 ounce packages of organic grown basil were goin' for $2.99 ea. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

DFB

 

[ejb]

>>Sun System 400 watt metal hallide grow light

Dan, is that a specific recommendation on a grow light? why 400 watts over 1000? and why metal hallide over "high pressure sodium"? Just curious if you did a lot of research before settling on that one...they certainly are not cheap, so I don't want to buy the wrong one.

In my own situation, for this year the light will be the exclusive light source (using a "grow room" in the cellar for lack of a more suitable place, and eventually I'll be moving them to the greenhouse for use on those short winter days.

As you can see, I have been making a shopping list /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif You have sold me on the idea.

 

[DrDan]

DFB

Well you should speak to Mark Howard and tell him Dr Dan in Ohio sent you. Mark is the owner and will do that is possible to make your growing a pleasure.

Yes I am rapidly becoming aware of the demand for this type of produce...

Let me tell you a little story... When I bought my AeroJet 4 and then a TurboGarden Ebb & Flow, I began thinking I was going nuts when I added a second AeroJet 8 tray and another Ebb & Flow. I was capable of about 72 heads of lettuce a month and maybe a pound of Basil, and a bunch of vegetables for the house - what in god's name was I to do with all that lettuce. Well as it began to be ready, we one day just went house to house down our block and sold all we had ready. Later about 48 heads became available. We wanted to move it in 3 days so it stayed fresh and pretty... Well we visited "one" restaurant and sold a dozen heads. We put the rest in refrigeration at our veterinary office. Within two days the remaining 36 heads were gone and all of our basil was sold except what we keep for growing. In short, people go "nuts" when they see and taste this stuff. I am selling lettuce for $1.25 a head and Basil for $2.00 for 3/4 ounce.

So now the game is trying to keep up! There is more demand than what we can produce. And it makes you feel wonderful! It is great to be around the lights and the growers are sooo cool to maintain. I'm kind of a techno geek and enjoy taking pH and PPM measurements and mixing nutrients, etc. My girlfriend loves it too. She is a real stickler for detail and looks at each head of lettuce every day. That is important in that aphids can quickly wipe your plants out. Not with her! She looks em over and as soon as we see anything we are right on top of it. And then there is the satisfaction of having people tell you how wonderful the product is. Just makes you feel great!

Soooooo I am currently collecting bids on three 36 tray NFT growers that will give us about 1150 heads a month and we will just grow basil in our current units. The hobby is rapidly expanding into a business which looks promising economically.

Can you imagine what would happen if consumers started not trusting the food supply offered in the grocery store? My gosh we have the government passing out gas masks to Penagon employees; instructions on how to tape up a room in case of chemical attack,etc.... I can see doubling or tripling our prices in the not to distant future and still sell all we can produce.

So go talk to Mark and get a small unit and make it a hobby - but expect that you may end up overwhelmed with demand for your "green kids" and end up a commercial grower.

Good Luck

DrDan

 

[DrDan]

ejb

I believe I recommended a TurboGarden Ebb & Flow which is only about 2' X 3' in size. A 400 watt lamp will cover 4' X 4' area in primary light and another 2' on each side in secondary light. What is best is to get a switchable ballast that will take either MH or HPS lamps. I have one of those and it is great. You see for vegetative growth MH has the best light spectrum; when you reach the bloom stage you want to change to HPS which mimmicks the "redder" light of autumn and brings plants into bloom. For the most part I am a lettuce grower and you "never" want lettuce to bloom (bolt) cuz it gets bitter. I have HPS on my blooming beans, mellons, and tomatoes and MH on the basil and lettuce. There's a great book on lighting called "Gardening Indoors with HID Lights" written by Van Patten & Bust (available at CropKing for about $10).

So anyhow the basement is great. I am also thinking about putting some growers in my basement.

Why not 1000 W? I personally don't like 1000 watters. The 600's put out darn near as many lumens of light and they are much cheaper to operate. I have two 600 W SunSystem lamps on a 359 degree SunCircle rotator. One is MH and the other HPS. Both lamps have wonderful reflectors called Verizontal's. These are big reflectors and do a wonderful job of spreading the light out! I just flood about a 16' X 16' area with this setup - all primary light! (But it was expensive)

I also recommend that you take a short field trip up to Urban Garden and talk to Mark Howard. He knows his stuff. Many times he has told me something wouldn't work or some piece of equipment was bad and 100% of the time he is correct! You know.... "Live and learn"

So I'm glad you are considering starting up. You will love it.

Dr Dan

 

[DFB]

DrDan, Its sure great to hear your positive view on growing and marketing of your produce. So many times it seems all you hear is a negative retort, most noticeably from those who of course aren't doing it.

Your right about keeping up now. Once you've created that great demand for your product you gotta fulfill it. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif It wasn't but a few short years ago we did our first Farmer's Market with some excess produce. Kinda of an end of the season thing. Only had enough to last a couple of hrs. Now its 3 markets a week during the season along with direct marketing to a food co-operative and some of the local restaurants. I'm considering ways to be able to do a 4th market this year. There's two here that run the same hours in adjacent towns. This summer one of the chefs that work for a nearby college wanted local produce for his kitchens. Difficult to connect using conventional growing methods. Except for keeper crops like winter squash and cabbage our season here is just about ending when school is in full swing.

My wife's stepdad had considered hydroponics a while back. Never went thru with it though. At the time he was growing some cukes and tomatoes in pots in his greenhouse. Another grower he knew was also doing greenhouse tomatoes. Grew the plants directly in bags of potting soil laid out on benches.

I really like the idea to grow some fresh herbs and some cherry tomatoes indoors during these long winter months. Maybe a few hot peppers too! My wife really likes the cleanliness aspect of hydroponics. NO DIRT! /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif If I do something I'll be sure mention your name to Mark. /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Dan, I'm registered with the state. They have an Agricultural Partner Program that you can apply for acceptance to. It allows you to use special promotional literature for your products. Maybe your state has something similar to offer too.

Good luck to you to. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

DFB

 

[dmccarty]

DrDan,

Are you using your State Extension Agents/Service regarding
your hydoponics?

Just by dumb luck I heard an advert on our local PBS station
about a hydroponic supplier that is about 5 miles from work.
I went to their website and started following links and found
lots of information from growing to running a business. Costs
to startup, expenses, etc.

Have you used these sources of information?

Here are some wacky ideas...... /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

One of the oopps you mentioned was not putting in radient
floor heating. We want a green house to grow our own
veggies during the colder months and I figured we would do
things a certain way. Well, one of the links I read had
construction details for green houses. One of the option was
to just drop gravel down for the floor. Certainly is cheap but
how do you get the radient floor?

Here is one of my wacky ideas. Radient floor heating is just
pipes with warm liquid being circulated. What is hydroponics?
Circulated water with nutrients. Hmmmm, Can the nutirent
water be heated? Obviously not to hot. That would keep the
heat closer to the plants in the first place.... How about
heating any of the supports aka pipes that are used to hold up
tomatos, beans, etc.... Its not thermal mass but it keeps the
heat close to what needs it...

Later,
Dan

 

[DrDan]

Oh boy now I did it! We bought two growers today that we pick up in a week. They will produce 1152 heads of lettuce a month! I guess the name of the game now is marketing...

Yes I have been in contact with Agricultural Extension agent. Been talking of low interest loans, but I am holding off on borrowing any money until we put up another greenhouse.

"If" we can move the 1152 heads a month I guess all fears are over and we will go the 30' X 128' greenhouse that will do about 6000 a month.

I guess some people use gravel as a floor and granted it is cheap, but it is also a big magnet for insect propogation and since we do not use any pesticides I prefer concrete. The sun is a wonderful sterilizer if it can beat down on insects and their eggs.

Yes we do heat the nutrient tanks. Not much for lettuce which likes 68 to 72F, but the beans and tomatoes are running at about 75F. Just use titanium aquarium heaters which work great. And yes we use heat in the nutrient for our lettuce nursery. It is a flat pan that floats 8 - 10" X 20" flats in about 1" of warm water (82F). I built that myself. Just has a pump that flows the water in on one end with a 2 gpm emitter and it drains out the other end back to the reservoir. The lettuce grows in little 1" square rockwool cubes that have about a 1/4" deep depression in the top. Once the baby plants are at the 4 to 6 leaf size the cubes are set into the grower.

I have heard of some growers who just laid insulation on the ground and then placed heater pipes and then covered it with fine gravel and it works well as a heat sink. Not as good as concrete, but as you know concrete is expensive.

One of the problems with lettuce is keeping it cool. Concrete painted with flat white epoxy is great at reflecting sunlight up which helps the plants and keeps it cooler. Our new house will be white everywhere. We also will be using 6" thick composite paper honeycomb cooling pads over the air input shutters in summer. Water drips onto the tops of these pads soaking them. This will reduce greenhouse temperatures an average of 5 degrees which really drops the relative humidity. If you keep the humidity lowered, the plants draw in more nutrients and grow faster. It's all a very interesting science. That's why I just stick with lettuce and herbs. There is just so much to know that I feel more comfortable just deling with one type of plant. Also a greenhouse set up for lettuce isn't good for tomatoes and visa versa. Different types of plants all together.

So anyhow guys, we'll keep you posted as this business goes through it's evolution. I guess we are in for good now...
Wish us luck...

DrDan