Home Generator System ???

   / Home Generator System ??? #1  

deerhunterf350

Gold Member
Joined
Nov 1, 2005
Messages
278
Location
St. Louis, Mo
Tractor
New Holland TC55DA
Doing some research for my Grandmother, see is looking into buying a "Complete Home Generator" which will switch on when the utility companies feed is interrupted "GONE in an ICE STORM".

Looking for feedback from any/everyone who has a system.

Recommendations Good and Bad , Like I said just starting my research so if there are any Problematic/Durability MFG's that you may have found during your search and buying time please pass them on so I know to stay clear of those.

Please state the manufacturer and size of unit (KW Hour) .

Air Cooled vs. Liquid Cooled engines?

Are you pleased with performance ?

How loud is the system / Distance unit is from your house ?

Fuel Consumption?

Total Cost including ATS (Auto Transfer Switch) .


Anything else that you might care to add also will be helpful.


Thanks and hope to get a lot responses.

Dan
 
   / Home Generator System ??? #2  
I have a complete system. Briggs and Stratton 12KW. Running on NG . Air cooled. With a 200 amp full house transfer switch. Complete install was about $4500. Maybe a little less, because I got a new breaker box and a gas line to my garage in the price. That was in 2004. Purchased system from a local store and used a electrician and plumber for install.
Generator is installed about 4' from house. It is quite. If you are near the room when it is running it can be heard. But not loud. I live in the country with nearest neighbor over 300' away.
Cost to run is hard to tell. Because it is included in our gas bill for house. Generator auto cycles one time a week for 20 minutes. In the 5 years I have had it has accumulated just over 220 hours. 90 of those hours where for auto cycles each week.
This size generator is not recommended for heavy AC use. But since we do not need it much here in MI it fits our requirements.
Norwall Power Systems is a good place to start shopping for a generator.
 
   / Home Generator System ??? #3  
A lot depends on your expected usage. If it is rare/occasional, a LP/NG might make the most sense. Fuel cost is high, but convenience, start under most any weather, and cost are the best. Gasoline is more economical to run, but more expensive for an equivalent system but the gas does not hold up well over long periods, even with a stabilizer. Diesel is the lowest cost to run, and the fuel will last forever. Starting in very cold weather can be an issue. Diesel will have the lowest consumption for long run times.

The other decision is how big. LP/NG is good for up to 5-8 KW. Gas can go bigger, and diesel is the champ of bigger units. Do you want to just get by, or keep the house fully conditioned, or live like nothing has happened ? This will define your loading and the size.

Air vs liquid ? Liquid is the most expensive, but has the longest life and usually is the quietest. There is some additional maintenance with liquid cooling.

I started with a small gas gen, and then upgraded to a 5KW gas gen. No auto start, but it could run my well and provide minimal environmental comfort. After I got a Kubota tractor, I no longer had much need for gasoline in any quantity, and I realized that when I really needed the gen set, my gas would likely be old and not usable. So I bought an 8KW air cooled diesel gen set. I can basically run my entire house at normal comfort levels. I can only run 2 out of my 3 zones of AC, and if my wife wants to bake a cake we need to shut down the heating or cooling, but otherwise we can live normally during a power outage.

Paul
 
   / Home Generator System ??? #4  
If you want one that is truly seamless, it gets pretty expensive.

I worked for a doctor who spent $25,000. just so when he was away in FLA for the winter, his sump pump and furnace would work. Cummins power ~15-20KW on a pad, auto transfer switch, inside control panel the size of a dorm refrigerator.

The first time the power went out he was still home and the system didn't switch on, when he called them they told him to hit the reset!!!
 
   / Home Generator System ??? #5  
I have a Generac 15kw air-cooled unit powered with LP. It has 90+ hours on it and has never skipped a beat. The only problem is the steel enclosure witch it rusting badly-but they now offer a aluminum enlosure...

I bought mine from Norwall Power Systems and installed it myself.
 
   / Home Generator System ??? #6  
Onan 45KW, runs on propane. Automatic start/transfer.
Liquid cool. Very happy with it. Cycle it once a month, run block heater in the winter and cooler seasons.
It's a 300 cu inch 6 cylinder engine, but has an oversized radiator and fan. In general, if you can place the unit away from bedrooms you're OK. If you have a power failure, but your generator is keeping your heating/cooling going, you'll sleep much better than being powerless and uncomfortable. The noise will soon sound very sweet. If it's close enough that it would bother your neighbors, move further out into the country or buy and extra 5 KW and burry a line and outlet near the property line they can use.
Generator unit cost about $17K now, xfer switch (400A) was about $3500, 200A switch is about $2500. Installed myself, 1st at old house then at current house. About $3700 for wire, conduit, disconnect, pad, propane tank. Rule of thumb is install cost = 2-3X generator and transfer switch cost if contracted out.

Other comments:
In a retrofit, in many ways the generator is the cheapest part of the deal. Theres a lot of electrical work to do for the transfer switch. Local codes will probably want a disconnect in the same area as the breaker boxes. Then there's all the digging, generator pad, getting fuel there, etc.
When thinking about size, consider putting a new breaker panel before the transfer switch. I did this and put the big 10KW resistive electric heater strips for the heat pumps on that new panel. This depends a lot on your loads. A house with all gas appliances probably won't need this. In an all electric house (what I have) you could also put things like the oven before the generator to decrease the generator size and cost. If you do an outbuilding, you can put the welder before the generator and run a smaller circuit out on the generator for lights and a small outlet. Also price out the full ranges of generators. There may be a small difference between a 12 and 15KW unit because they both use the same 3 cylinder engine. But at 20KW there might be a jump because you need a 4 cylinder engine, but then there would be a much smaller jump to go to 25KW which would still be the 4 cylinder engine. Unfortunately, the mad disease that affect managers and marketing is changing this as we live in a world where things are price by silly perceptions and nothing that relates to cost.

On the topic of fuel consumption, I could never get anyone to give me estimates on how much propane the generator would use. Here is where that landed. Think about any vehicle with a similar sized engine. Think about how much gasoline it would use going down the road at 55 mph. That's about how many gallons per hour your generator will use on a typical load. For my 300 cu inch engine, it runs 1 gallon per hour with no load, 2 gallons per hour typical, and can go up to 3-4 gallons per hour at a big load (30 KW or so). So for me, I plan on 2.5 gallons per hour. Propane companies here make you buy the tank for standby use. Up side is anyone can fill it because you own it. Remember that it's not when you run out of fuel, it's when are conditions such that a propane truck can come down the driveway.
While you're digging up the world, consider running a copper line to the deck so you can stop buying bottles of propane/natural gas for the grill.

The 15kw Generacs are very popular, and there are benefits to dealers that are used to installing and working on them. Again the panel before the xfer switch can really help balance things out. The ratings on the Generacs are a peak rating, for a small amount of time, but that's OK since you just need that peak to get compressors spinning (be it refrigerators or freon). There are also air cooled units which are more noise less maintenance. Enclosure rust is a big problem, aluminum would be worth it if you can get it. As always, listen to kennyd.

techman's fuel comments are right on the money.

So start by popping off the cover to your breaker panel and figure out what things draw. If you are not comfortable doing this, then just contract out the entire process and whoever is doing it all will help you with the sizing.
This is a lot like buying a tractor. Start with defining your needs (the hard part), then figure out logistics (where will things live, how do you prepare the area for them), and finally the fun and easy part, how much power do you want to buy. Starting out saying "I need a xxKW generator" is as silly as starting out saying "I need a 40 HP tractor". That step is the _end_ of the process, not the beginning.

Finally, there are many spousal brownie points to be had to a fully automatic system if you can swing it. And if you go portable generator and manual transfer of a few circuit, still put in a 2.5 or 3" conduit from the outside where you'll be parking the generator for when you want to upgrade in the future. Be sure to include a 2nd smaller conduit for the low voltage control circuits need in a fully automatic system.

Pete
 
   / Home Generator System ???
  • Thread Starter
#7  
Guys,

Thanks for all the replies. I am doing the research for my Grandmother, as my Grandfather passed this spring, she is wanting a Complete Auto system. She wants all the Circuits to be "Hot" to have full use of everything when Power Outages occur.

She understands that the High draw items ( Elec Range/Oven , Elec Clothes Dryer, 4 ton A/C ) will need to be staggered in use, to keep the unit size and price down.


I have been looking at the Generac 22KW Quietsource Series LP , Liquid cooled, Alum enclosure. $7,400.00 . This does not include the Auto Tran Switch.


TECHMAN -----

You mentioned "some additional maintenance with liquid cooling" , would this be every 2-3 years draining/flushing the system and replacing with new coolant?

Or is there other maintenance needed?



Thanks again :)
 
   / Home Generator System ??? #8  
My maintenance schedule is:
1) New battery every 3 years.
2) New antifreeze every 3 years.
3) New radiator hoses every 6 years. The block heater gives them more of a beating than you might imagine. I only run the block heater 6 months out of the year.
4) Oil change every year, do UOA.

When I run it every month (or when the system exercises itself) stand and look at the gauges. If you can watch it run it every other month or so, you can catch stuff. Had a radiator thermostat go, caught it. There's a pattern to the cycling when it turns on that I look for.

Pete
 
   / Home Generator System ??? #9  
Guys,
She understands that the High draw items ( Elec Range/Oven , Elec Clothes Dryer, 4 ton A/C ) will need to be staggered in use, to keep the unit size and price down.


I have been looking at the Generac 22KW

Thanks again :)


When I said the doctor spent $25,000. I was guesstimating, he never told me the exact amount, he just said alot. He was a retired neurosurgeon so I guess "alot" to him might be much more than I thought, especially going by eepete's cost breakdown, and of course he had it done by contractor so the total amount could be much greater than I guessed.

There wouldn't be much staggering needed with 22KW (not sure what that ac draws) and none with that 45KW that Pete has, that's the highest output for a residential ap I've heard of here.

There's usually a few generator talk threads going on at this time of year, it's been kinda quiet.
 

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   / Home Generator System ??? #10  
Dan The 22kw Generac is a nice unit,, We have put in several this year. Very quiet and dependable.. What size service will you be switching ?? and do you have a Meter Disconnect or is your main breaker in the main panel ?? If you have a meter disc. You can get by with just a transfer switch but if you have just a main breaker panel you will need a transfer switch with a service main built in..or install a breaker in front of the switch..

Other costs to consider :: If you go liquid cooled you will need a cement pad to put it on also the price of the gas tanks and piping.. Have you checked with Lowes or the Depot ?? They offer some very comparative pricing and will send someone out to look at you particular situation ..


Fuel usage chart

It requires 2 horsepower*to produce 1000 watts of energy per hour


Under load, each horsepower consumes 10,000 BTU per hour

LP Gas contains 92,000 BTU per gallon
 

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