Grinding Sound !! - Dealer Says NORMAL

[MoyockHeel]

Long story - sorry

I took delivery of a new 40 DA with FEL in June. Hour meter stopped working at 22 hours and the cruise control stopped working, also. I called dealer. Said he'd come and pick it up the next day for service. Before he came, I mowed lawn with 6 foot finishing mower, all seemed fine. (Air temp 90, all else normal.) After mowing for ~ 1.5 hrs, the tractor made the most awful grinding noise. I thought I'd run over something with the mower. When I took my foot off the pedal, the noise stopped. I checked to make sure nothing was around blades, etc. All clear. I continued mowing, and the noise started again, I again took my foot off the forward pedal and the noise stopped again. No problems with the mower, nothing run over, in a differenct part of yard, etc. I started again, and this time when the noise began, I took my ear plugs out and disengaged the PTO before taking my foot off the pedal. The noise continued and was coming from the under portion of the tractor, behind the motor, in what I assume would be the transmission area. When I took my foot off the pedal, it stopped again. I related this to the driver/mechanic when he came to pick up the tractor.

After one month, I finally got a call from the dealer. Said the hour meter was fixed, the cruise control fixed, but he could not diagnose or hear the noise. I visited the dealer, and told him it was similar to the ticking noise you hear when you first start these tractors. (Cavitation/bubbles in the hydraulic lines on left side of tranmission, near left brake pedal. You can feel the pulsing when you place your hand on the tubing.) However, the noise I heard(complained about) was 100X louder, and continuous, for 20 seconds or more. Dealer and rep say "IT'S NORMAL!!!"

After demanding to speak to the NH rep, they changed the hydraualic fluid and filter, and the engine oil and filter, as appeasment for the lengthy service period.

All said, the noise continues. Tractor has 15 more hours on it. My dad has heard it, my daughter and son have heard it, It scares the crap out anyone in the yard when it happens. I have it on video tape, but have not shown it to the dealer, yet. It sounds like you have let the blade or FEL down on pavement when your traveling at high speed. SKEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEECH!! It sucks. I want it documented that it's happening so that when the thing craps out after the warranty is out, I can have it fixed. I plan on taking my video tape to the dealer soon, with notarized statements for him to sign, one copy for him to place in my file, and one copy for me. I am beginning to notice some sluggishness with the FEL and the rear lift upon first starting the engine. Has anyone else had anything like this happen to them? Any suggestions? Other than that, the tractor is fine.

 

[NewToy]

You are doing the right thing documenting this with the dealer as soon as possible. It would be ideal if you could have it make the noise with the dealer standing there listening. The tape is good but I'd want him to hear it first hand and then tell you it is "normal". Sounds like there is no doubt you have a problem that warranty will cover. Make sure you voice your displeasure with your last "service" experience and have him tell you how they will avoid such an extended shop stay next time. Put the ball in his court, let him know you bought a brand new machine so you wouldn't be without a tractor for a month at a time. See if a loaner would be available if such an extended stay is unavoidable due to parts availability. I'm sure they will take care of you but sometimes you have to be a bit persistant as they make no money on warranty work, it's easy for them to let you sit while they do the "pay" work.
I hope they get it squared away for you ASAP.
John

 

[jk96]

Let us know if you find out anything. I've got a DX33 (84 hours) that I think is doing the same thing. Mine sounds almost like a squeeling belt on a car, only worse, more of a metalic sound with the exact same symptoms as yours. Only when pressing on the forward pedal, stops immediatly when letting off of the pedal, and coming from the transmission area. I had a DX24 that also did the same thing. It quit after about my 100 hour service. My dealer could not find anything wrong with either machine.

jk

 

[jinman]

Welcome to the forum, MyockHeel. I would say congratulations on your tractor purchase, but that seems out of place with your problems. I would be really upset to lose a tractor for a month over something so simple as an hourmeter and cruise. Both are very simple to fix, even if they have to be totally replaced. I'd bet your dealer didn't order the parts until he had your tractor in his shop. The fact that he didn't offer you some options tells me that he is not very customer oriented.

Your problem with the hydrostatic transmission is something I would be very concerned about. Since your tractor does not have a clutch, the motor drives the transmission all the time, even when the range shifter is in neutral. It sounds like when you press the pedal and change the swashplate angle from neutral to forward, the noise may happen. That would indicate a problem in the pump side of the transmission vs the hydraulic motor end. Does the sound change or stop when you press the rabbit/turtle switch? That changes the hydraulic motor. If the sound does not change with the rabbit/turtle switch, then you have isolated the problem to the pump part of the hydro. There is a pump on the front of the transmission that supplies fluid to the main pump. This is called a "charge pump" and it can make noise if there is air in the lines due to a bad connection letting it suck air. When the transmission is making noise, does the tractor have less power or slow down?

I'm just trying to give you some things to think about, but I think you are doing the right thing by recording the noise. I would send a letter to the dealer by certified mail with a return receipt or by express mail with a delivery receipt. It just seems to me that your dealer does not have a very astute service department. My tractor has never made any noise like you described. It whines, but it does not SKREEEECH!. That would get my attention and I'd be all over my dealer to fix or replace my transmission.

 

[MoyockHeel]

YES!! I'm so happy you've all responded. Thanks, much. I've read this forum since shopping for a tractor, and was impressed by the knowledge and interest expressed here, regarding NH tractors. I also like the modifications / improvements / tips on FEL installation, etc. Thanks, again.

The question on rabbit/turtle switch is something I haven't tried. I will do so this afternoon, as I'm finding any excuse to use the tractor to hear the noise. It was a major pain to mow the lawn with a video camera around my neck, but I'll do it again today. The camera battery is charging now! Thanks for the tip on determining whether it's the motor or the pump.

There is no change in the tractor's performance when the noise begins. I have actually stopped taking my foot off the pedal when it happens now, to see what will happen next. I was grading my driveway, ~1500 ft, and the noise lasted for ~3/4 of the length. My daughter couldn't believe it. It sounded like I was grading a macadam paved road. She heard it from my house, until the noise ended when I neared the state road where my driveway ends.

I'm familiar with the hydraulic whine, and know that is normal. This is not that, at all. Have you heard a ticking noise when DA tractors first start? The NH rep says that is normal, but haven't noticed it on other DA's when they start. My grinding sound is similar, but at a much faster pace, and much louder. I'd have to say that the noise appears to be coming from under my feet, maybe louder onthe right side. Could it be related to the controls for the FEL? As said the FEL was sluggish upon start up the last time I used it, and I noticed the rear lift was real sluggish picking up a 7' grader blade, on a previous instance.

The noise is not so much of a skreech like a belt squeal, but more of a low pitch skeeeeak, as in a grinding sound. I've gotten real good at mimicking it. I kind of clear my throat in the roof of my mouth, like I'm trying to dwell up a hocker, but only at the top of my mouth about an inch behind my teeth. I know, too much info!! I would be happy to talk to someone on the phone and make the noise for them.

I'll talk to the dealer today. I plan on taking my tape, along with a small TV to play it on, just in case, he doesn't have one. I'll let you know what happens, including the ultimate fix. I plan on getting it resolved, no matter what. I've been advised by my farmer friends/family to demand a new tractor, if they can't fix it. I don't really think that's going to happen, but that is the level of defect I'm talking about. Thank you very much.

 

[Birdman253]

It is a long shot, but check the MFD driveline. If it is not lubricated, it will make an intermittent noise like you describe. I am referring to the cover over the driveline. I saw one of these a couple of years ago, and taking the cover off, cleaning, and lubricating cured the problem.

 

[jinman]

I'm familiar with the hydraulic whine, and know that is normal. This is not that, at all. Have you heard a ticking noise when DA tractors first start? The NH rep says that is normal, but haven't noticed it on other DA's when they start. My grinding sound is similar, but at a much faster pace, and much louder. I'd have to say that the noise appears to be coming from under my feet, maybe louder onthe right side. Could it be related to the controls for the FEL? As said the FEL was sluggish upon start up the last time I used it, and I noticed the rear lift was real sluggish picking up a 7' grader blade, on a previous instance.

There is a ticking noise from a ball checkvalve on top of the HST filter just in front of your brake pedals on the left side. Many, many people have heard that at low rpm. That is completely normal. It's more of a clicking noise than anything else.

Birdman253 makes a very good point about the housing around your MFD driveshaft going to the front axle (sometimes call a 4WD driveshaft). If it is loose, it can vibrate. Or if it is bent up against the shaft, it could really make a scraping noise. It could also be from lack of lubrication. A couple of shots of grease might "cure" that problem if that is it. If you are assuming that the 4WD is not active while mowing, don't forget that the shaft turns all the time because it is attached to the front axle. It is just not engaged to the transmission until you put the control lever into MFWD. If you raise your foot on the HST pedal and slow down the tractor, that shaft will also slow down and change its sound. It's one of those things that's very hard to isolate because everything is tied together.

I'm really curious why your FEL and 3PH are not performing well. The only thing the HST has in common with these is the reservoir and the big hydraulic filter under the tractor on the right side near the rear tire. After the fluid goes through that filter, it splits off to the main hydraulic pump and to the HST charge pump. I'm beginning to think that your main hydraulic pump may be failing and the sound you hear is radiated down the hydraulic tubing that runs under the operator's platform on the right side of the tractor.

Why would this change when you let off the HST pedal? Well, maybe because the HST is not drawing fluid from the main supply. If there is a restriction somewhere, the main pump may be cavitating when the HST is taking part of the flow. I don't think this is the problem, because the main hydraulic system is almost completely independent of the HST system. I just cannot figure out why your main system is acting strange.

Here is the main flow for the HST system:
1. The HST charge pump draws fluid from the "T" in the line from the main filter.
2. The fluid goes thru the charge pump and then up to the HST cooler in front of the radiator.
3. From the HST cooler, fluid is routed back to the HST filter in front of the brake pedals.
4. From the filter, the fluid goes into the pump portion of the HST and also down to the rabbit/turtle valve.
5. If the rabbit/turtle solenoid is actuated, the fluid changes the HST motor's swashplate angle.
6. The fluid to the HST pump flows in porportion to the deflection of the HST pedals. It is supplied to drive the HST motor.
7. After fluid leaves the HST motor, it returns to the reservoir and repeats the cylcle.

The basic main hydraulic pump flow is:
1. The main hydraulic pump draws fluid from the "T" in the line from the main filter.
2. Pressurized fluid flows out and then back to the system diverter valve.
3. The diverter valve prioritizes flow to the 3PH or FEL joystick valve and to the PTO clutch/brake and provides system overpressure relief.
4. Fluid from the 3PH or FEL is returned to the reservoir.

Good luck checking on the problem. Your tractor should not be making this noise and I'm astounded that your dealer would allow you to use it until something breaks. It's a shame you are having to go to such lengths to document the problem.

 

[Doc_Bob]

There is a ticking ..............

Wow, what a great analysis! I don't have an HST and I learned alot from reading your reply.
Bob

 

[PineRidge]

I don't know what your problem is, but I do know what it isn't. It isn't normal, that's for sure. I'm another TC40D owner without that problem so don't let them give you a snow job.

Hope you get to the bottom of it real soon.

 

[MoyockHeel]

Man, I couldn't ask for more satisfaction from a forum...I expected the best responses, and am getting them. Thanks. And to the administrators of this site, this is the ultimate definition of your site's existence, for me anyway!

The guard around the front drive shaft is an interesting idea, but I have lubed every fitting and can't imagine this thing jumping off and on the turning shaft, without a gradual change. My gut feeling is the hydraulic system. I don't plan on putting a wrench on this thing. I wash it regularly, check the fluids, lube it, and all accessories. After the warranty runs out, I'll do all the things I did with my old '56 model Ford 650. Heck, I bought the new one to be able to stop doing so much continuous mechanic work! I realize that occassional stuff will be required, and I ain't skeered, but dang...

After planning on checking the Hi/Hi vs. Hi/Lo scenario, I had other work to do on the documentation of my issues. I spent two+ hours watching/listening to my video tape, and making a copy of the important parts. It really jogged my memory, too. The grinding noise has so far occurred under hi/hi, w/in 5 min. of initial start, and after ~1.5 hours of operation, and everything in between. I even have it on tape while under cruise control. There is no loss of power, or gradual ramping up of the noise. It suddenly begins, and just as quickly can stop. It happens when I'm turning, or going straight.

The problem with the rear lift occurred w/in 5 min of start, and I have it documented on the tape. The grinding noise started up w/in 1 min of the lift issue. The lift was picking up a 6' finish mower, and would make a severe whining-type noise and respond only after about 2-3 seconds after moving the lever. Just after that, I noticed a new tinkling/ringing-type noise on the right side of the tractor.

I have about 10 instances of the grinding noise, one instance of the rear lift being slow with those accompanying noises, but none of the FEL being sluggish, on tape. Boy is it fun to lug a video recorder around while you're trying to get something done, but I've used a recorder before to document stuff that turned out to be invaluable. (That's a whole 'nother story that I'm sure I could publish for money! Hint-Dealt with a daily delivery person occassionally defecating in the road at the end of my driveway!! Too unreal to get into.)

I have an appointment to show my video tape and "issues" log to the dealer tomorrow. I plan on having them sign something indicating these issues were brought to their attention, providing them with a copy and keeping one for myself. I'll keep you all informed of the outcome. Thanks for the analysis.

BTW, the NH rep knows this site...so they do read it.