Gravel Base for Asphalt

[quarencia]

Sorry for the long read. I'm having some trouble with my contractor and thought I'd seek some advice.

I'm getting my driveway repaved. Part of it had to be removed as it was originally laid over the grass with no base (this was done before I owned the house). Got four quotes and all agreed that there should be 6" to 8" of base put down, wait three weeks to settle, pave the new area 3", then cap everything (old and new) with 2". So far so good.

When they came to excavate and put in the base, they only put down 2" to 4". That was the crew's estimate when I asked them, not mine. I called and asked how they intended to make the job right. Guy on phone said he would have owner call me. I got crickets. No call. Finally, 18 days later owner called and wanted to come put asphalt down next day. Long conversation ensues and he agrees to come out, dig up and put down proper base. He called night before and asked if I could be there the following day. We agreed that they would come in afternoon and I would be home around noon. I arrived home a little late at around 12:50. They had come and gone already.

Soooo, I got out a shovel and dug five holes, each about 8" wide (spade width). Then I laid a straight three foot board across each hole and measured the deepest part of the hole down to ground level. The five holes measured, 4.5, 4, 4, 3, and 2.5 inches.

My question to TBN...Before I complain again, am I measuring the base thickness correctly?

 

[quarencia]

There's actually more to this story. I've also caught their salesman and owner in several lies. They never learned the golden rule of lying. Remember your lies so you don't contradict yourself. But I really just want to know if I'm measuring the base depth correctly.

 

[tommu56]

Your measurement method is correct.
Was it hard and compacted while digging?

They "might have put that much down and compacted it"
Do you believe that?

I would call and ask them when they were going to finish adding the rest of the rock.

Then tell the to come and remove their material because you were getting a contractor that does what they agree to do with out cutting corners or pulling your leg.

tom .

 

[quarencia]

I do not believe it was compacted. They didn't compact it the first time. They let is settle naturally for three weeks then compact it just before they lay asphalt. I'm not sure that 6" of base will compact to 2.5".

I called the owner and asked if they'd put down 6 to 8 inches base as required. He said they had. I told him that I still had a problem with the job since the thickness I measured was less. He couldn't believe it was only 2.5" in one place. Told me his father has been doing this for 25 years and can't understand why it keeps getting done wrong. He agreed to send them back out to do it again.

As for firing them, that's harder. In CT it is required that all home improvement contractors sign contracts with defined start and end dates. So we have a contract that they have not technically violated yet. As long as they keep coming back to get it right and aren't outside their dates, I'm not sure I have grounds for breaking the contract. Bad customer service, misleading conversations, and lies won't get me out of the deal as long as they ultimately deliver to the contract. Tomorrow I am calling the CT Consumer Protection Agency. They deal with policing contractors here, but I'm not confident they'll be able to help much yet.

My mistake was being lenient with the dates when we signed the contract. My fear is that if I have to fire them at the contract end date (Oct 15) then it may be too late in the year (cold temps) to hire someone else to finish the job.

 

[quarencia]

Oh, one more ugly part to this story. Because of the garage, sidewalk, and drainage requirements for the area in question, they can't simply add more rock. They have to remove the rock, excavate dirt, then backfill with more rock.

Very ugly and expensive to keep doing this wrong. Think they'd have gotten it right the first or second time.

 

[Carykong]

what percentage of the contract is already paid?

 

[EddieWalker]

Things vary depending on soil conditions, but at a very minimu, the rock has to be 4 inches thick. The purpose of the rock is to create a solid base that will support the load of the vehicles that travel on it. Anything less then four inches will not lock together. If it does not lock together, it will move around. When it moves, it allows water to get into it and you will quickly get potholes and erosion.

Blacktop, asphalt or pavement does not hoave any strength. It is a finish material that will give you a smotth finish, but it will not stay together if the material under it moves around or allows water to get under it.

It's not uncommon to make the road base allot thicker then 4 inches. This will help support loads of heavier traffic and overcome unstable soils. This is science to know how thick it has to be, and something that only an expert on site can determine.

Assuming that they contractor knows what he's talking about and has recommended 6 to 8 inches, then he's aware of some issues with the soil and is building it up heavy to get it right. This is allot more money for materials, but it will give you a better road.

The thicker the base, the more money it will cost. That's real simple. Buying more then you need is wasteful and drives up the bid. Delivering less then what you have agreed to can be either lazy or criminal. What are they charging you for? Are you paying for 6 to 8 inches of rock? Are you paying by the ton or the yard? My experience with rock is that you buy it by the ton. An 18 wheeler, belly dump will carry about 27 tons, give or take a ton while loading. Once close enough, they pull out and get weighed. That is what you pay for. Each driver should have a tag or ticket with his load weight on it at delivery. Your contractor should collect those so he knows what was delivered.

The math of rock is fairly simple. One load will go 100 feet, 4 inches thick and ten feet wide on a smooth surface. While this isn't 100 percent accurate, it gives you a ballpark for figuring. How long is your road, how wide is it and how deep will the rock be? Do the math and you get an idea of how much rock you need to buy. Check with the contractor to see what was delivered. I'd also ask to see the tags personally. If they are pulling a scam on you, and it almost sounds like they are, get all those tags before paying them for anything. It's real easy to tell you that 1,000 tons or rock, or howevery many tons it was, and actually only get half that amount, then have you pay for the full amount. If you didn't check the depth, then you'd never know how much rock was laid down.

The rock has to be compacted before paving it. Rock will take a very long time to compact on it's own by just driving over it. It needs to have a vibratory roller go over it many times to lock the big rocks in with the small rocks. If you don't, then that's were you will get potholes.

Realize that by compacting it, it will become uneven. Most guys run a compactor and motorgrader at the same time while having rock delivered so they can add rock to the low areas that develop during compaction. By waiting, like you said they are, they will probably do a quick pass with a roller, or even worse, BS you into into believing that it's already compacted and that they made it even better by driving over it with the dump trucks full of blacktop. Again, any part of the road not properly compacted will fail.

I don't know your laws or your contract, but it sounds like you are in trouble and you need to find somebody else to do this. From what you've said, they seem very good and experienced at cutting corners.

What did you agree to in your asphalt mix? Do you know the difference between the rocks that they can use? I think there are ways to short a client with the amounts of oil too, but I'm not sure what they are. I'd start doing your research on what you are buying and demanding proof that you are getting what you have agreed to. If you are paying for materials and not getting what you have paid for, it will be very dificult to prove this after the fact. By digging into the rock and finding out that they shorted you on what was agreed upon, you already know that you have to watch their every move.

Good luck,
Eddie

 

[QRTRHRS]

For a driveway base, "modified", 2RC or some close derivative is typically used for a base. In simplist of terms, it is stone with some "dirt" mixed in. Properly installed, it will pack like concrete and support a lot of weight.

No way is it going to "settle" on it's own in three weeks to overlay with blacktop even in a residential situation. It needs to be vibratory rolled, especially six to eight inches deep.

Often time, the blacktop crews doing residential work do not have a huge roller. If that is the case, you would be better served if the stone was spread and rolled in thinner layers.

 

[brin]

In my opinion the gravel base must be rolled without question. Asphalt has no strength on it's own it all depends on the strength of the base. As the gravel begins to settle so will your asphalt settle and it will begin to break and crack. If i were you I would stop this now while you still can and if neccessary get an attorney involved, I hate to say that but better now than later based on what you said about your state's contract laws re: contractors. Later will be too late. All of my asphalt roads have been first graded, then rolled and then a complete covering of #4 gravel followed by 4 to 6 inches of crusher run ( a smaller gravel ), but I am in the south - does not get as cold as you, and then rolled and compacted again and then a minimum of 4 inches of asphalt and then rolled again. I sure wish you had not been late that day.

 

[brin]

In my opinion the gravel base must be rolled without question. Asphalt has no strength on it's own it all depends on the strength of the base. As the gravel begins to settle so will your asphalt settle and it will begin to break and crack. If i were you I would stop this now while you still can and if neccessary get an attorney involved, I hate to say that but better now than later based on what you said about your state's contract laws re: contractors. Later will be too late. All of my asphalt roads have been first graded, then rolled and then a complete covering of #4 gravel followed by 4 to 6 inches of crusher run ( a smaller gravel ), but I am in the south - does not get as cold as you, and then rolled and compacted again and then a minimum of 4 inches of asphalt and then rolled again. I sure wish you had not been late that day.