Getting screwed on warranty!

Jaybr · May 15, 2009

A couple weeks ago while my son (20) was running the wood chipper on our CK35, the hydraulic pump sprung a leak. The tractor is just under 2 years old, and less than 200 hrs on it.

I called my dealer, they came and picked up the tractor, and over the past 2.5 weeks have replaced several different o-rings in the pump, and each time it blows another.

This morning I get a call from them telling me that they just realized that the rear remotes where engaged, and that was causing the problem. They also stated that since every time they started it up to test it the pump got extremely hot, that Kioti says they need to replace the pump as damage has been done.

Here is the kicker, the dealer says that Kioti will not cover this under warranty because the remotes where engaged which burned up the pump.

I know when I checked out the problem, the remote lever was in the neutral position, I haven't had the backhoe on the tractor since last summer, and I know the lever has been in neutral since.

The dealer says that Kioti sent out a bulletin stating that if there where pump problems and the tractor had rear remotes, they would not cover under warranty because it could have been caused by operator error with remote engagement.

I never got that bulletin, and my warranty says bumper to bumper for 2 years, powertrain (pump should be covered here) for 4 years.

It seems to me that if there is no releif valve in the system to address this it is a very poor design.

It also seems very fishy to me that I know the remotes where in neutral, and now they are engaged. Also fishy is that my dealer dropped Kioti last year, but still does warranty work, and maybe Kioti doesn't want to support them and their just looking for a way to get me to foot the bill.

I will fight this and fully expect Kioti to fix this under warranty.

VictorW · May 15, 2009

Granted leaving a remote on for extended periods and dead heading the line pressure will hurt the pump even with the relief valve working. What I don't understand is, if the wording is correct, if you have remotes and the pump fails, don't repair under warranty because it "could " have failed due to the remotes left on. I guess they should put out a disclaimer when you get remotes that if the pump fails your out of luck for warranty on the pump.

That doesn't sound right to me unless they have a concrete way of proving you did leave the remote on. I'd talk with another dealer. Something doesn't sound right and I think your on the right track about something fishy.

CurlyDave · May 15, 2009

Ask them "Who is your agent authorized to receive service?".

Explain that in all states corporations are required to designate with the state attorney general an agent authorized to receive legal service. This is where you send the notice you are suing.

My experience has been that just asking this question will frequently get them to accept responsibility. If they don't fill out the court paperwork and take them to small claims court.

The warranty is a legal contract. They can't unilaterally change it with a service bulletin. No judge will allow that.

Get the agent for both the dealership and Kioti. Let the judge sort out who pays.

tommu56 · May 15, 2009

After you get it fixed I would put loop back ends on them so it wouldn't dead end if left on.

tom

Jaybr · May 15, 2009

I've talked to Kioti now, their stance is that leaving the rear remotes engaged for extended period of time at high rpms will burn up the o-rings in the pump and cause internal damage to the pump.

Since the original problem was leaking pump, they assume that I left the rear remotes engaged and this problem is caused by operator error and cannot be covered under warranty.

The warranty states it does not cover:
physical abuse or misuse of the product or operation of the product in a manner contrary to the provisions of its owners manual.

I just read through my owners manual for both the tractor and the backhoe, and nowhere does it even mention the lever used to control the rear remotes, or any damage that may incure for misuse of that lever.

Gittyup · May 15, 2009

Does anyone know, are the big 3 brands designed the same way? The loopback hose is one solution. Are there others that can be designed in? Like may a valve that returns to neutral when dead head is sensed? Do they make a relief valve that can be put across the remotes?

I was told to watch for this and not to do it when my tractor was delivered. But, I can see how it would b easy to forget, or to accidentally engage it. It does make a pretty distinct whine when it dead heads. I'm always listening for unusual noises.

RollingsFarms · May 15, 2009

my John Deere automatically goes back to neutral if it isn't hooked up. you can push it forward or backward all day but the moment you let go, it goes right back to neutral. i was shocked when he said he must have accidently left it engaged because mine doesn't do that. ofcourse, i can only speak about John Deere tractors that i've been around. they are all the same way.

VictorW · May 15, 2009

Jaybr said:
I've talked to Kioti now, their stance is that leaving the rear remotes engaged for extended period of time at high rpms will burn up the o-rings in the pump and cause internal damage to the pump.

Since the original problem was leaking pump, they assume that I left the rear remotes engaged and this problem is caused by operator error and cannot be covered under warranty.

The warranty states it does not cover:
physical abuse or misuse of the product or operation of the product in a manner contrary to the provisions of its owners manual.

I think you can get this repaired if you talk to the right people if indeed you did nothing wrong. As you say, they assumed you left the remote engaged which would be misuse and abuse. If they assume for all of us who have remotes, then a failing pump would never get repaired or replaced under warranty. If you left the remotes engaged, well that's a live and learn lesson. If you didn't, then it should be covered. If the o-rings can only burn up by dead ending the remotes, then live and learn.

VictorW · May 15, 2009

One other possible cause to hurt the pump if you didn't leave the remotes on. Is the chipper hydraulics set up as an open center or closed center system? I'm not familiar with hydraulic chippers. If it's a closed center system and you have it connected, then that is just the same as leaving a remote engaged.

JoelD · May 15, 2009

This sort of thing is frustrating.

If this is a problem common enough for a bulletin and you called them about the problem and they did not at that time ask you "we've been allerted to a cause of pump failures and leaks, did you happen the leave your lever out of neutral?", which sounds like they did not.

And if they tried to fix more than once, without first noticing lever was not in neutral, again, common enough for an allert, and ran the tractor and did not notice that the pump was deadheading, which you just can't miss, particularly if you are a mechanic, and blew out more seals, then I'd say they are full of crap.

Tell them to either prove it was broke because of the lever, if so, prove where it states you should leave in neutral when hoe is not attached. In the meantime, you are of the opinion that the pump broke and needs to be replaced.

File a BBB complaint, file a formal complaint with Kioti with all your concerns and facts clearly stated and then I would expect next step would be small claims court or something of the sort, certain there are lawyers on the site who can advise.

I can't stand when people fight over warranty claims, particularly when there is any question.

Document everything.

Joel