Getting Closer, Am I unfair?

shoppintractors · Aug 12, 2004

And that is exactly why I place so much emphasis on breakout force. You can dig into a pile, but it doesn't mean you can get the bucket back out with your load.

Bob, I don't mean to discount you emphasis on breakout force, but.... from my experience, if I went into a pile and the bucket could not lift, I merely bumped the hydrostat pedal in reverse, moved back an inch or three and the bucket would move right up. Until we have some side by side, actual comparisons I don't think we will know the real story.

 But I still contend that for the vast majority of users, it is absolutely a non-issue to say that the 3pt is superior because it can lift a bit more, because really only a very small % of users will ever get close to the capacity of the 3pt. 

I think you underestimate the group of tractor enthusiasts that frequent TBN. /forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

I think a lighter tractor has an advantage on turf.
Don't really matter to me. I aerate every fall regardless.

So based on capabilities, I think you & I have to agree that the Kubota L3130 is the most capable of the original 3 tractors mentioned by the poster. 
Most definitely, comparing apples to oranges.

Of the remaining two, the DX33 and the CK30, I still would say that the DX33 is more of a tractor than the CK30, I suspect you would say exactly the opposite.

/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif (Need I say more?)

 I think the combination of the DX33 & the 114 Loader, as an overall package simply overwhelm the added weight advantage (if it is even an advantage) of the CK30, 
I'll give you the DX loader is a "bit better" spec'd, however, the CK30 certainly makes an excellent case to pause, L/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gifK and compare.

 but the reality is I am right and you are wrong /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif 
Earth to Bob, Earth to Bob, Come in Bob, Can you hear me now Bob.......... /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Don

Bob_Skurka · Aug 12, 2004

Don, be fair when you edit me! At least I used emoticons when I wrote I was right and you were wrong!!!

shoppintractors · Aug 12, 2004

Fixed Bob, /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Don

Bob_Skurka · Aug 12, 2004

Don, So did we settle this then?

OK let me start up a new issue.

Where does the CK25 fit in? While I like the CK30 and would prefer it to the B2910 sitting in the yard, I pretty much despise the CK25. Overweight, underpowered, basically a big lumbering oaf of a machine that underwhelms me in pretty much every way and is inferior to the TC24/DX24 for just about every task I can think of. Even with the better spec'd 130 loader, the CK25's size disadvantage would likely make slower to use in real life situations where manuverability is critical to loader work efficiency.

Any thoughts on this Don? /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif

shoppintractors · Aug 12, 2004

Don, So did we settle this then? 
Bob, Bob, Bob.........

I do have one more thought on the breakout force issue. I don't see how you can utilize 2712 lbs. of breakout force and keep the rear wheels on the ground. That's more than the DX33 weighs. How much ballast do you think it would take to keep the rear wheels on the ground? If I buy into your 3 point hitch theory of excess lift capacity that will never be utilized, I guess the same would hold true about excess breakout force capacity. I would be curious to know what the static load capacity of the front axle is on the DX/TC 29/33.

 OK let me start up a new issue. 
Bob, the only problem with you & me debating all this is that it really is providing very little to the original poster in terms of useful information right now! Sound familiar?

Where does the CK25 fit in? 

It's been reported here the CK25 is in the neighborhood of $1700 less expensive than the CK30. Which to me makes it a "dollars that make sense" tractor. You'll be able to do just about everything a CK30 can do, probably not quite as fast and will probably need a little more finesse. Definitely a much nicer ride than the DX/TC24. Not everybody has to have the biggest friggin engine in the smallest frame available. $1700 will go a long way into buying additional implements.

 I pretty much despise the CK25. Overweight, underpowered, basically a big lumbering oaf of a machine that underwhelms me in pretty much every way and is inferior to the TC24/DX24 for just about every task I can think of. 

Bob, could you tell me what you really think and stop beating around the bush /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif. You sound a little pompass(sp?) -or- is that pompous /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif? Keep it up and I'll have to sneak you out the back door of the Kioti forum before you get mauled /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif by a crazed Kiotian.

Don

Bob_Skurka · Aug 12, 2004

OK Don, and just imagine if I really didn't like Kiotis?

By the way, operating any tractor, even with with upwards of 2700# of breakout force, without ballast is simply dangerous. Check out my tractors, I load the wheels and use ballast boxes.

KiotiJohn · Aug 13, 2004

( I pretty much despise the CK25. Overweight, underpowered, basically a big lumbering oaf of a machine that underwhelms me in pretty much every way and is inferior to the TC24/DX24 for just about every task I can think of. )
What surprises me Bob, about this statement is that you're basing your dislike stictly from read materials. You have never been on a CK25 or a CK30 as far as I can tell. You did say there is no dealer near you, right? I can't understand anyone making such a strong statement without ever having been on the subject. I have tried each of these tractors, and while I thought what you do about the CK25 before trying it, afterward I realized the tractor does a lot better than I had imagined it could. As a matter-of-fact, it was very strong, and easily maneuvered around.
I hope any new tractor people will not take your words to heart as they are really not fair to the tractor since you've never been on one. And I don't mean this in a nasty way to you at all, but I hope the buyers will not pass over the CK25 because they read that someone thought it was underpowered, a big lumbering oaf of a machine etc.
Until you've been on, and used this tractor, I don't think your statement of how inferior it is to the TC24/DX24 is based on anything more than "specing." I believe you're one of the people who have said that many of us are putting too much importance on buying by specs aren't you? John

Bob_Skurka · Aug 13, 2004

John . . . I wrote it as bait for Don . . . he didn't really bite on the bait as hard as I hoped.

Do I really feel that way. No. I don't like the CK25, but I don't despise it.

Was I willing to defend the position for the sake of hashing out the truth. Yup. That is what debates are for.

Now if you really want to know what I feel. I have stated before, numerous time, I like Kioti. Have I run any of them. No. I have seen 2 and looked them over. They were not on dealers lots. The fit and finish is excellent. The specs are pretty good. The designs (at least of the CK class machines) are at least as good as the big 3 machines, I especially like the no snag tail lights that can't be knocked off by branches and similar design features.

But I don't really like the CK25 because I do think it is too much of a compramise. For the very small price difference the CK30 has too many advantages to pass up when comparing it to the CK25, and those advantages come in the form of the added hp that will power larger implements. The CK25 will be limited to smaller box blades, smaller mower decks, smaller rear blades, etc. If you are going to be limited to the smaller implements, then I belive you should use a smaller tractor with similar power because it will be easier to manuver into tight spaces.

While the CK30 is an excellent machine, easily superior to the B7800/B2910 class from Kubota, I think the CK25 is much like a Corvette that has a 305 small block shoved under the hood instead of a big chunk of 454 muscle.

So while you hope new buyers won't pass over the CK25, I still fully believe they should simply overlook it and go to the CK30.

And I also believe that other tractor brands have machines that should be totally overlooked. The NH TC18, while many love it, seems to me to suffer from the very same problems. In fact NH dropped it from their product line. The same can be said for the TC35, same size as the TC40, hobbled by lower hp that limits implment size. But I generally like the TC29 & TC33 because while the 29 is a lower hp machine in the same size package, the hp matches up very nicely to the size of the machine. The JD 4010 is a machine that I see no use for. As well as several other models in their line up.

There is some practical limit to the hp/size ratio. Just because one frame is great with an engine does not mean another engine is also going to be great with that same frame. The reality is that some of these "in between" machines might make their owners happy because they don't know any better, but in the practical world, they are too big of a compramise. JMHO. And I think that it is fair and objective to like one machine and dislike another very similar unit. I don't bleed green or orange or blue or yellow or red or whatever. I study and I observe. I use and I listen. I make a lot of mistakes, and I learn from them. But one thing I also try to do is be objective in my observations of these tractors we all love to play with. So I am just as willing to trash my own brands as I am to compliment another . . . or visa versa, as the case may be.

MessickFarmEqu · Aug 13, 2004

more fuel for the fire....

Everyone knows a tractor goes way beyond the specs. IMO, the TC33 is way more tractor than the CK30 partly because it uses the transmission from its larger brothern. On our lot, its clear that it falls between a Kubota B and L, but costs as much as an L.

Also, loader lift numbers are only rough estimates. If a tractor is properly weighted they will always out do their ratted specs. Everyone can see this, just look at some of the things that people have done with their BX loaders and tell me it only will lift 460lbs /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif.

If I where in the market I would probably jump to the L3130, but thats me.

shoppintractors · Aug 13, 2004

OK Messick,

In another thread, regarding the CK30 you said, A B7800 is much more equal of a machine.
 Which has been proven to be far from the truth. The CK30, is a much more Deluxe Featured tractor with a far better FEL.

Fire extinguished. Period.

Don

Bob_Skurka · Aug 13, 2004

Neil & Don, I will have to side with the Kioti CK30 over the Kubota B2910; as someone who sits his rear end in the seat of the B2910 on a regular basis I can tell you I like the machine, but the more I use the little TC24D the more I become disenchanted with the larger Kubota. When the Kubota was purchased by my neighbor and myself, we went out looking and were pretty blind to much what I have come to learn over the past several years. And there were fewer viable choices back then, so we were pretty much limited to the big 3. So we decided on a 30hp machine and looked at price and the Kubota was pretty much the low price machine and in our ignorance it seemed like the right machine. And don't get me wrong, it is a good machine. I actually like it a lot. Ergonomically it is great. It has been trouble free with zero repairs. The engine is amazingly smooth and reliable. But the loader is weak. When I added the 12LA to the NH, it seemed to be just as strong as the LA402 but I didn't bother to dig up any specs on the 402, I just figured the larger bucket on the 402 made the bucket "feel" like it had much greater resistance. But then I started doing things with both tractors where I alternated from one to the other and it really became apparent that the little 12LA is the equal to the larger LA402. And the tighter turning of the smaller TC made using the loader much faster in practical use when working between trees or planters or other obsticals. The B2910 will pull a box blade with much better results (because the blade is too big for the smaller lower hp TC) so it has its place. But I tend to now favor the TC if only because it is more effective with the loader and that is due to not only loader capacity but also greater manuverability. Now if I had a Power Trac with a loader, that would simply blow away any of the above mentioned machines, but I don't have one so I admit I don't own the best, but I also will say that (at least on paper) the CK30 is going to better the B7800/B2910 based on my experience with the B2910.

I will also say that the L3130 will blow away the CK30 and I will stick with my original assertation that the DX33 will also best the CK30 on numerous fronts. And I will continue to say that the CK30 is not in the same class as the L3130 or the DX33. The CK30 is in the same class as the B7800/B2910 as well as being in the same class as the DX29.

cptdave · Aug 13, 2004

JP, what type of flying do you do?
Cpt.dave

Durbob · Aug 13, 2004

How does the Mahindra 2015 compare to the ck20.? Are they about the same size and specs? In the advertisements i've seen the Mahindra is a little cheaper and has a mitsubishi engine. I wonder how they compare as far as creature comforts. At the fair a guy quoted me 11,600 on a 2015hst with fel and that was without trying to deal with him. The kiotis ck20hst are advertised in the paper for 12,000 with fel.
I'd say if i was ready to buy now than it would probably come down to those two. The Mahindra is a decent sized machine although i haven't seen a Kioti up close to compare size with. I would really rather have about 25hp though, and the Mahindra looks big enough to throw 25hp into. Any thoughts on that?

Bob_Skurka · Aug 13, 2004

Durbob, I am sorry but I have no idea! I've never even seen a Mahindra in my area. The area I am in is pretty saturated with the Big 3 Dealers, one of the Big 3 dealers just added Branson, Kioti is finally moving into the area, they now have 2 dealers about an hour away. Prices on the Big 3 brands in my area are low so that may be keeping out some of the minor brands because they don't have a large price advantage.

I paid under $14,000 (including taxes/delivery/etc) for a 2003 NH TC24D-HST with 12LA loader . . . prices are up somewhat since last summer and the model is now the TC24DA, but I suspect that in my area I could get the newer model at about $15,000 delivered to my door from my local dealer who will pick it up and service it. I don't know how the TC24 price compares to the Kioti or Mahindra pricing but the TC has 24hp versus 20. Also, regarding the CK20 is $12,000 with FEL, is that gear or HST? And is the Mahindra gear or HST? Does your pricing include taxes/delivery? It is really only constructive to price similarly equiped machines to similarly equiped machines unless you factor in the upgrades/downgrades into the pricing.

KiotiJohn · Aug 13, 2004

( John . . . I wrote it as bait for Don . . . he didn't really bite on the bait as hard as I hoped. )
I rather figured that was the case, but how about all the others reading this that don't know what's going on between Don and you? Isn't it a disservice to them on some level?
I do agree, to some extent, that the CK25 is underpowered for the frame, but it will do amazingly well. Had I been making the decisions on new models, however, I would have skipped the CK25, gone with the CK30 and introduced a CK40 as well, if keeping the DK45 was necessary. The DK40 doesn't appear to sell all that well, being between the 35 and 45, good sellers, but would be a good model for a CK, with 20, 30, and 40 HP models available. I have driven my cousin's TC33 gear, no frills, no loader, just pulling a bush hog. It's a very good and strong tractor. I wish it had HST so I could judge it that way against the CK30, but one can't have everything! John

KiotiJohn · Aug 13, 2004

( How does the Mahindra 2015 compare to the ck20.? Are they about the same size and specs? In the advertisements i've seen the Mahindra is a little cheaper and has a mitsubishi engine. I wonder how they compare as far as creature comforts. )
Durbob, I looked at the Mahindra, but didn't like the dealer so we didn't get really deep into it. It appeared to be a well made, pretty well laid out tractor. I'm not sure it includes the valve block for the hydraulics and the joystick as the CK20 does, so that's a consideration as this will raise the price by hundreds of dollars. Otherwise it's a pretty good price. Compare the two with exactly what all comes with it as far as features go, and consider what will cost extra to make them equal. John

shoppintractors · Aug 13, 2004

I will also say that the L3130 will blow away the CK30 
Bob, the L3130 has a 5" longer wheelbase than the CK30 and 8" longer wheelbase than the DX33. It is a larger tractor and should be able to blow both tractors away.

 I will stick with my original assertation that the DX33 will also best the CK30 on numerous fronts. 

Bob, I think you'll have to hang a small pacaderm off the 3 point hitch on the DX33 to attempt to utilize the breakout force you tout so highly, stressing the entire frame. The CK30 has more engineered weight built in (plus 3" longer wheel base) which should mean less weight has to be added to the tractor, stressing the frame & 3 point less. IMO the CK30 will stand on its own against the DX33. Both tractors are good tractors. Both tractors have pro's and con's. It boils down to what you want to use them for.

Don

Bob_Skurka · Aug 13, 2004

I'm not sure what the big advantage of the 3" longer wheelbase is on the CK30, but that seems to be a big deal for you. When I am working on tractors, and when I worked on loaders in the commercial enviornment, and when I worked on forklifts, I always found that the greatest capacity machine in the smallest physical size was a big advantage. You may say the ride will be smoother with the 3" wheelbase increase the CK has, but I don't see that as a real world advantage.

And your arguement that you make about stress really can't be backed up factually. The reality is that a properly engineered product can deal with stress with metalurgy or design, or both. My FIL, the structural engineer, designs buildings to deal with all sorts of stress loads and doesn't do it by increasing mass. Bigger is not always better . . . most men prefer not to have a fat wife, and I'm sure most women prefer not to have husbands with bellies that flop over their belts.

I do know that the DX has and additional 4.6 PTO HP than the CK30 which would give the DX an advantage with PTO powered implements.

I am sticking with my assertation that the DX33 bests the CK30.

PS . . . on an earlier post where you refuted Neil Messick, I think you took him somewhat out of context -unless I didnt understand his post. When I looked over his orignal post, I think he was referring to pricing & size, which is roughly similar. The CK does, however have greater features and capacities, as I did point out.

shoppintractors · Aug 13, 2004

I'm not sure what the big advantage of the 3" longer wheelbase is on the CK30, but that seems to be a big deal for you. 
Larger footprint translates into greater stability, especially with front end loader work.

 You may say the ride will be smoother with the 3" wheelbase increase the CK has, but I don't see that as a real world advantage. 
10 years ago I would agree with you. Starting today and looking 10 to 15 years into the future that extra 3" of wheelbase and a good spring suspension seat looks better and better.

And your arguement that you make about stress really can't be backed up factually. 
I keep visualizing pictures from this thread....
Major Structual Failure Thread

 I do know that the DX has and additional 4.6 PTO HP than the CK30 which would give the DX an advantage with PTO powered implements. 
I will agree with you except, I get 3.4 PTO HP difference. 23.5 for the CK30 and 26.9 for the DX33.

I am sticking with my assertation that the DX33 bests the CK30 
Well Bob.......we have exchanged a lot of information in this thread. Many valid points on both sides of the fence. I'll go out on a limb and say were both right. (Did I really say that? /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif) It's really up to the individual to go out and sit in the seat of both tractors, demo them as thoroughly as possible, define the uses, set the priorities, compare prices between the CK30 and the DX33 then go for it.

Don

Bob_Skurka · Aug 13, 2004

3" longer does not necessarily equal greater stability. Lower center of gravity does equal greater stability. I don't know which tractor has that.

Regarding the smoother ride, I still don't really see that as any issue.

Regarding PTO HP, I pulled the numbers of GEAR versus GEAR for the 2 machines right off the specs from the manufacturers. HST versus HST might be a bit different. Not sure which you used, but that could easily account for the differnent numbers.

Regarding Stress and the link. So? Any machine can be abused. Any machine can have a structural flaw in the metalurgy. Any machine can be a "lemon." Any brand can suffer from that from time to time. But those are not normal. Heavy does not mean strong. Thicker does not even mean strong. The science of metalurgy is very interesting, thin alloys can be stronger and less brittle than thick castings.

Regarding the fact that we are both right. . . hmmmm? OK. I'll buy into that, this has gone on long enough.